DVD audio player

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Daniel Quinn
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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

Macca wrote:You are jumping to the conclusion that I have not done the listening comparisons myself. I have and between the same masters I heard no difference. On a number of different systems.

And when you look at what 'hi rez' is that is not a surprise, since it is not 'high rez' at all. It simply has more dynamic range and is able to reproduce frequencies over 22Khz (assuming they exist on the master which they won't if it is an analogue master). That's it. It does not work the same as high def telly despite some otherwise quite educated people assuming that it does.


But then I suppose you will argue that ignorance is bliss....
Where is that conclusion i jumped to ? O that right I didnt , you are putting words in my mouth.

lets recap before we go about our usual 14,000 word diversion before it is decided I am right .

fretless as offered his findings on hi res , you didn't say i have listened and it was not my experience , you joined in with DSJR with a techno babble explanation to refute
his empirical findings .

Additionaly , even my cursory understanding of his res allows me to suggest that your classification is not universally accepted fact but an opinion .

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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Macca »

You clearly jumped to the conclusion that I was basing my 'opinion' on facts not on listening, hence you comment about Wigwam.

If you think what I have said about 'hi rez' audio is opinion than you don't know anything about how digital audio works. Either read up a bit or steer clear of the discussion.

Finally I was not disputing what Fretless heard indeed there are only 3 possible options:
1) different masters even if they claim to be the same.
2) noise above 22Khz changing what is heard in the audible band
3) imagination

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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

"You clearly jumped to the conclusion that I was basing my 'opinion' on facts not on listening, hence you comment about Wigwam."

this is rubbish , i commented on and only ever comment only on what is wrriten . there is no logical inference to be drawn between my wigwam comment and the empirical status of your hires listening .

definition - hi-res refers to audio that has a higher sampling frequency and bit depth than CD, which is 16-bit/44.1kHz. High-resolution audio files usually use a sampling frequency or 96kHz or 192kHz at 24-bit, but you can also have 88.2kHz and 176.4kHz files too.

please explain how you collapse this definition the only difference being hi res goes up to 22khz and accordingly as more dynamic range .

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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Macca »

Okay

Red book cd has a maximum frequency response of 22KHz. This is a higher frequency than any human can hear. It is also higher than the maximum frequency that can be captured on an an analogue tape. It also has 16 bit resoultion which translates into 94db of dynamic range. That is a lot of dyanamic range, more than FM radio, more than vinyl LP.

So sampling frequency is wavelength and bits are amplitude - if you have amplitude and wavelength then you have a signal that can be run through an amp and out of speakers as music, no different from the grooves on an LP - same info just diferent storage method.

'Hi Rez' digital increases the bit depth - so giving you more than 94 dB dynamic range - even though you can't use it - and increases the sampling frequency which raises the maxiumum frequency that can be reproduced - from the 22Khz we already have with normal CD to 48Khz or even 96 khz.

Now if we know that we cannot use even 94dB of dynamic range and we know we cannot hear above 22Khz what exactly is 'hi rez' adding that is of any benefit?

That is not opinion it is maths.


When DVD-A and SACD were launched the record companies spent a lot of time and money re-mastering classical, rock and jazz from the 1950s through the 1970s. I recall listening to the SACD of Beggars Banquet and being amazed. So much better than red book CD it was laughable. Until I read the sleeve notes that extensively document the painstaking re-mastering that was done. This is a recording from 1969 - recorded on analogue tape - there is nothing on those masters above about 15Khz. So what is creating that great sound? A fortune spent on mastering.

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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Fretless »

The analogy I would make here is with a digital camera. On my smartphone there is a 5 megapixel camera, But I have another 'proper' camera of 20 MP.

The objects in the photos from both are the same, colours are the same. But one has better fine resolution than the other. The image is more 'lifelike'.

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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Progmeister »

FFS, looks like an Oppo then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :text-threadjacked:
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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Classicrock »

Macca and DSJR lets get it straight. Many people hear a substantial difference between hi -res audio and red book. The mantra that there is no info above 22khz anyway or we can't hear it anyway does not equate with audible improvements in sound. Quite clearly something else is going on. Studio professionals hear this and 24/96 or even 24 /192 is becoming the standard for preserving recordings originally on analogue tape. Also your mathematics don't explain the improvement in digital recordings since they went from 16/44 to higher resolution (ignoring the brickwalled mess on many CDs). If the better digital source wasn't audible the vinyl version of many recent releases wouldn't sound substantially better than the CD version.

One theory is that higher sampling frequencies remove digital artifacts to a range where they do not muddy the sound within our hearing range. There is certainly a lack of grain in hi-res that is all too obvious on CD. There is a lot that is not fully understood but it is generally accepted by recording professionals that hi-res sounds superior.

A good way to test this is to listen to one of the recent Steve Wilson remasters that come in dual DVDA and CD format. The CD is very good sounding but DVDA is substantially better. In this case this is the same mastering but presumably downsampled for CD. I think people who are in denial haven't had any extensive experience of comparing the formats concerned. Difference are clear cut and rather more than the relatively small differences between various cables and other accessories. The bottom line is hi-res more effectively conveys the musicality of a piece rather like vinyl but not as well IMO.
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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Progmeister »

:Bllocks:
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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Classicrock »

Progmeister wrote::Bllocks:
Until you buy a DVDA / sacd player you won't know? So why do you want one?
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Re: DVD audio player

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

Prog you need to up your game this isn't aos ;)

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