Vinyl comparison

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tomblackford
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Vinyl comparison

Unread post by tomblackford »

So... as some of you might recall, I recently acquired a lovely TD-150 / SME-3009 S2 Improved Fixed Headshell / SME FD200, which was (at time) loaded with a Denon DL-160. I thought it sounded great, but after about a week it came to some accidental grief at the hands of both me and my kids which resulted in a new cartridge being necessary.

After an informative discussion on here, I ended up replacing it with a DL-301 (which could be justified as a 'like-for-like' replacement for the no-longer-availavble DL-160 in an accidental damage claim).

I used this opportunity to get the TT serviced and when it came back I thought it sounded great, with a really smooth musical quality and really meaty low-end. Tracking seems brilliant, with minimal IDG but potentially lacking a little 'air' at the top-end....(although I understand the Denon's can take a while to break in). That top-end thing was really playing on my mind... the DL-301 is low output, and there are myriad horror stories online about impedance loading etc which got my paranoia racing.

So, I thought I'd try a little experiment to see if the frequency response really was accurate, and whether I needed to worry about it (my Phono1 doesn't allow the loading to be changed, for reasons that Richard could explain better than me). I should thank the guys at Billy Vee in Lewisham for kindly letting me borrow their demo Rega Aria Phono stage for a couple of hours to help experiment with this.

As I have very little confidence in my auditory memory, I tried to facilitate a more immediate comparison by recording a short section of a number of tracks out the back of the phono stage into a little Zoom R16 digital recorder. I then normalised the files (to -1db) for more exact comparison - assuming identical Dynamic Range the files should be identical volume. The same cables were used for each, although I had to put the Phono1 through my P20 to attenuate it a little (otherwise it was peaking on the R16) so there was an additional cable in there for that.

Having started this arduous (and arguably pointless) process, I then expanded the 'experiment' to include files taken from my old Project Debut III and, as a control my Raspberry Pi / DAC+. I even took some samples using the Phono stage on a really cheap and Folio Notepad mixer (which arguably produced the most interesting results of all). I ran the files through the TT Dynamic Range Meter to help quantify some of the audible differences. Finally, I wrote a little web-player to allow the files to be compared directly and the 'volume' matched, to account for those dynamic range differences.

I'm not sure if anybody is interested (or has even read this far) but you can find this here:

https://d3udekiaqq01eg.cloudfront.net/outer.html

Wait for the word 'Loading...' to change to 'Play' and then click to begin playing. You can select the source to listen to by clicking in the column labelled 'Active' (yellow box will move down). There is separate volume for each file.

There are 4 tracks 'on offer'. I tried to choose tracks which were dynamically very different, and actually the different equipment did produce different results on each. The files themselves are in sync, but as yet I've not been able to get the HTML5 web player to keep them completely in sync when switching. I think this works best in Chrome browser, at least on my Mac.. Obviously all files have lost something by going through the relatively cheap A2D in the Zoom, so it's more of a relative comparison.

Some (possibly) interesting and unexpected findings:
  • It seemed impossible to find a digital version which matched the DR of the vinyl, even with albums (Dutch Uncles - Out Of Touch In The Wild, Brutal Truth - Need to Control remaster) which I'm pretty certain would not have a completely separate vinyl master. I understand from online research that there might be technical reasons vinyl appears to have a wider dynamic range for the same source, but I might experiment further with some records I know to have the same master as the CD.
  • The really cheap Folio Notepad phono stage not only reduced top-end detail and blurred the low end (probably expected) but also applied a significant reduction in Dynamic Range.
  • My old Project Debut III / OM10 arguably has a little more top end than the Thorens / SME / DL-301, but perhaps a less musical midrange.
Anyhow - like I say, this is deeply unscientific and I'm not certain this is going to be of interest to anybody else, but if you fancy a play, fire up the URL above (ideally in Chrome)... I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

jammy395
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by jammy395 »

Emmm, nice post Tom....Although I kind of got lost along the way.
It's a wonder you can actually enjoy the music with such manic thoughts running round yer bonce... :shock:
I just drop the needle in the groove and basque in glorious sound.
Perhaps you cant see the wood for the tree's.
Hope you get there in the end and find peace and tranquillity :guiness;

tomblackford
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by tomblackford »

Indeed Jammy. I actually think that's the big curse of becoming interested in hifi as a hobby - it makes it hard to just listen to music.

It was a bit of a missive... I probably could have summed it up more succinctly by saying - "check out this webpage where you can compare the output of some different vinyl sources".

jammy395
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by jammy395 »

It's the audiophiles curse Tom...... :lol: :guiness;

Daniel Quinn
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

Interesting , though I am struggling to see what conclusions if any can be made .

I note with interest that you got your insurers to pay for a 301 as a like for like replacement of 160. My ZYX was top of the range when they only made 3 cartridges , the top of the range one now retails for £5k , I may break it and see if I can do the same :lol:

_D_S_J_R_
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

It is to be hoped that digital versions of analogue material haven't been tinkered with too much, although I fear that ALL transfers for CD have been at least 'beauty-shopped' to hopefully make the sound of the masters as good as possible - I'm leaving out the loudness wars for now. Some artists such as Genesis and King Crimson have even had their catalogue completely remixed for a modern audience and playback system as the multi-track tapes still exist. When Robert Fripp and Simon Hayworth came to master the KC catalogue in 2004 or so from original mix tapes, they often had several masters to choose from and had to listen to each one for the best one to use (all in RF's diary from this period). Fascinating for me to read - and also tales of the Steven Wilson re-mixes some years later, if not for others. The 2004 CD of 'Court of the Crimson King' was from then recently discovered mixdown-masters (second generation tapes) so as close to the multi-tracks as possible to go and closer than the tapes used to make the early vinyl cuts.


As for vinyl, the master recordings will have had all sorts done to them, by and large, in an effort to get as much music onto the grooves as the more limited vinyl format will allow - too much L/R deep bass and the stylus jumps, so it's mono'd, too much sibilance and missssstracking can be severe on glued-up and overdamped MC types. Too much dynamic range and some may get lost in surface noise, so compression is added. HF losses in the cutting and especially pressing means that vinyl will always sound sweeter than the original source - witnessed it first hand so not merely opinion. Getting this mix/balance right is an art-form and experts in doing this used to have metalwork prepared which was shipped all over the world from the 'master cut.'

Conclusion? Enjoy all formats for what they are and don't listen too manically to the 'sound.' DL301 in an 'Improved' SME? Whatever floats yer boat I suppose but it's not something I'd consider, knowing both products well, but I caution that the 2.5g tracking weight will make the TD150 dynamic-wow a bit as it's my opinion it's only really suitable for 1 to 1.75g tracking - hey ho..... How have you set the tracking weight, as the SME only just makes 1.75g?
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way...The time has gone, The song is over, Thought I'd something more to say...

tomblackford
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by tomblackford »

Hi Daniel.

I totally agree about the lack of firm conclusions, perhaps other than that 'really cheap Phono stages' (i.e. Folio Notepad) can have some nasty side effects.

By comparing with the digital source (after level matching), I think I've convinced myself that the DL-301 is performing ok, and that the Phono1 has no need for impedance load settings, which I guess was the initial objective.

Given what I'd read, I was a little surprised that the different impedance loads on the Rega Aria didn't make any audible difference. At the time if affected the output level (and thus volume), so it 'sounded' like it was making a difference, but after normalising the files, they do seem pretty much identical.

Re - insurance.... I was as surprised as you. The insurers really were excellent about it (it was a genuine claim after all, :grin: ) and in the grand scheme of things, I guess it's a relatively small amount of money. Not sure I'd want to try it again though!

Cheers,

tom

tomblackford
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by tomblackford »

Hey DSJR,

Thanks for chipping in!
_D_S_J_R_ wrote:How have you set the tracking weight, as the SME only just makes 1.75g?
Ah it's a DL-301 mk2, so AFAIK tracks at 1.4G (+- 0.2). I think it's a pretty high compliance cart compared to the older Denon MCs (although AFAIK Denon quote the compliance spec differently which can be misleading)

Also, agree about different the manipulation necessary for different formats. Given the different route from mixing desk to ear, it's pretty amazing that digital and vinyl can (at times) sound so similar.... not sure if anybody made it to track 4 on my little web player, but if you set the volume of the digital track to 0.7 and switch back and forth to any of the three TD-150 tracks, it's pretty similar to my ears (on some Sennheiser Momentum cans). I suspect the A2D in the Zoom is levelling things a little though.

The Permed One
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by The Permed One »

jammy395 wrote:It's the audiophiles curse Tom...... :lol: :guiness;
Trouble with Hi-Fi people kinda get lost & forget what a stereo is actually for :lol:

jammy395
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Re: Vinyl comparison

Unread post by jammy395 »

Do folk still walk into a dealers and ask....."I want to buy a Stereo" :!:

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