Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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Daniel Quinn
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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from wiki -A musical tone is a steady periodic sound. A musical tone is characterized by its duration, pitch, intensity (or loudness), and timbre (or quality).[1] The notes used in music can be more complex than musical tones, as they may include aperiodic aspects, such as attack transients, vibrato, and envelope modulation.

A simple tone, or pure tone, has a sinusoidal waveform. A complex tone is any musical tone that is not sinusoidal, but is periodic, such that it can be described as a sum of simple tones with harmonically related frequencies.[2]

Thus is it not the case the tonal neutrality will involve much more than the a flat frequency response ?

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jandl100
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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Daniel Quinn wrote:Thus is it not the case the tonal neutrality will involve much more than the a flat frequency response ?
No, I don't think so.

"All" a speaker has to do is reproduce what is fed to it. Perfection is INs = OUTs, and the music as defined by Wiki can look after itself, I think. All you need to do that tonally is for levels across the freq band to be unchanged.

Dynamically, I think it's a different story and shortfalls there will affect the perceived 'excitement' and interest of the reproduction.

Either that or maybe I'm talking out of my nether regions. :lol: .. but the above woolgathering is the way it seems to me, sort of.
Jerry - unrepentant boxswapper 8-) Life's too short for boring hifi !

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Why do you think frequency response explains music, it explains nothing but frequency response, music is far more complex as DQ says. It is the main problem with ob v sub criteria as the real thing is infinitely complex and ob criteria are simplistic and largely unhelpful.

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jandl100
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:Why do you think frequency response explains music, it explains nothing but frequency response, music is far more complex as DQ says. It is the main problem with ob v sub criteria as the real thing is infinitely complex and ob criteria are simplistic and largely unhelpful.
I quite agree, and I never said it does explain music.
I was just following on from my point about Spendor (and other BBC heritage companies) focussing on tonal neutrality at the expense of other aspects of the sound. IMO it was Spendor's focus on flat frequency response in the mids at the expense of dynamic and other aspects that makes them so fekkin' boring!
Jerry - unrepentant boxswapper 8-) Life's too short for boring hifi !

Current system ... MBL 116F speakers, ... various and varying electronics and cables ... Laptop (TIDAL hirez)

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

It is still simplistic and not an explanation. The explanation is largely due to voicing for different jobs within the BBC design regime. A speaker is a box (usually) within a box (the room), and both have characteristics that change sound propagation. Your measured flatness would disappear at 20deg off axis, the only helpful way to measure speaker is a polar response in a known acoustic (not anechoic) and that would largely only apply to that acoustic. Also interpretation of a polar response chart takes a very high skill level in itself, far more than any forum objective idiot is capable of. In other words, per usual, objective criteria have ferk all to do with music and the end user, they have to do with consistent manufacturing and servicing.

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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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Image
Typical human male speech spectrum.
Source: http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?http&& ... level.html

I'd expect someone with a deep gravelly voice to have more bass content than for the typical male shown - which still has some significant bass content.

I think those BBC engineers were kidding themselves if they thought neutrality in the bass region was unimportant for speech.

Daniel Quinn
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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it was the 50's you had to talk like an upper class twit to get on the BBC :lol:
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Lindsayt (Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:18 pm)

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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

jandl100 wrote:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:Why do you think frequency response explains music, it explains nothing but frequency response, music is far more complex as DQ says. It is the main problem with ob v sub criteria as the real thing is infinitely complex and ob criteria are simplistic and largely unhelpful.
I quite agree, and I never said it does explain music.
I was just following on from my point about Spendor (and other BBC heritage companies) focussing on tonal neutrality at the expense of other aspects of the sound. IMO it was Spendor's focus on flat frequency response in the mids at the expense of dynamic and other aspects that makes them so fekkin' boring!
Jerry, have you heard any of these old suspects on MODERN sources and amps? I only ask because many systems today, using any source, seem clearer and easier to 'hear through' than they were back in the mid 70's ime. Not saying it'll make a silk purse out of a bucket of turnips, but it does seem to help them no end to use an amp with good damping factor (if you believe in such things - Harbeth don't:(), decent gauge speaker cables and a good digital or clean vinyl source (not the way we used to site a turntable, with no real thought for isolation).

The BBC had some strange ideas I think, but I remember BC1's being used as general purpose noise-boxes, albeit very good ones. kept a few feet off the floor and listened too on axis. used this way (or upside down on top of a big IMF in the dem-room:)), the bass was never a problem. Only down too low on their trolleys (where you listened above the ideal and the bass driver and once very basic port was too low to the floor) was the bass an issue for many. I'm using the BC1 as an example because the Beeb bought over four hundred pairs of these and hardly any of the closely related LS3/6 from Rogers (according to Spen Hughes, who DID know what he was doing and who for!).

BC3's were fun though and these didn't sound stodgy or dynamically challenged;)
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

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Another company that will die with the sales director's passing - here's typical spiel about their new confection.. Note the bent truth in the text regarding crossover inductors etc.

'Ashley James‎AVI special active speakers

DM10s are basically much improved ADM9RS, so the same size and appearance and facilities except that the bass driver has a round instead of a square chassis, so cannot be fitted to existing speakers. Upgrade of present models are not possible.
Electronics are the same but for the improved crossover filters to render them completely inaudible and a redesigned amplifier input stage that further reduces distortion.
The new crossover, the 300 times better damping factor and not having between 1 and 20% distortion from inductors are what gives our actives a huge advantage. but it's not the whole story. All drivers sound different, although manufacturers specs look surprisingly similar. By agreeing to pay over double the going rate for high end OEMs for our specially designed bass driver, we've a much smoother, broader bandwidth one that sounds identical to the tweeter (normally there's quite a change) at the crossover and has impeccable phase and amplitude behaviour extending an octave above the crossover. This is very special indeed and with the already superb tweeter gives us unparalleled clarity and imagery.
They are remarkable similar in terms of clarity to Sennheiser HD650 rather than the more controversial HD800. we've done this because so much pop is harsh and bright, specially seventies and eighties nostalgia stuff. Also Classical music and Jazz seem spot on and that's the real reference. Rog has been like a father to me!
I've spoken to Andy at Oakwood to establish the most popular veneers and the are: Cherry, specially selected Walnut, Premium grade Santos Rosewood (£100 extra), Light Oak and textured black or white (£50 extra). Ebony is less popular, more expensive and variable in finish. It might be blackish, it might have the odd light streak and it can be black and yellow striped depending on what's available, so I'd rather not order it.
Prices will be £1499 for Cherry, Walnut and Light Oak, £1549 for textured Black and White and £1599 for Rosewood. Believe it or not Ebony might be £1699.'
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Re: Hi-Fi Companies that lose themselves

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

The BBC principle was ALL WRONG so Spencer Hughes didn't in reality know what he was talking about. You cannot compensate for bad or wrong drive units with complex crossovers, and THAT is what BBC design is.

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