Linn Rip off

[Copperblue]

I had heard similar stories to that. I'm sure some of that went on though there may also be an element of urban myth attached as well.

Either way, the Linn story and its negative practices and influence on UK hifi are not pleasant I would agree.

What about source first, garbage in / garbage out? Some credit there perhaps, though they might have stolen that from IBM....in true marketing style.

[SteveTheShadow]

As a marketing exercise, source first works like a charm.
Buy your source then upgrade the arm, now your arm is showing up your TT ....kerrching!
Buy better TT; ah but now its exposing the limitations of your cartridge.....kerrching!
Buy better cartridge...Ah but now there's too much information for your cheap amp to handle....kerrching!
Buy better amp...Ah now your speakers are the limiting factor.....kerrching!
Buy better speakers...Ah but now the speakers are showing up the limitations in your new amp.
You really ought to be thinking about a pre/power combination....kerrching!
Buy pre/power combination....Ah but that magnetic cartridge is now being shown up, you need an MC...kerrching!
Buy MC.....ah but its feeding too much energy into your arm, you need a better arm now.....kerrching!
Now you're getting there, let's now think about your equipment supports.....kerrching!

I remember a demo by Max Townshend where he used a cheap Marantz CD player into a pair of gigantic Sir Galahad speakers vs a Rock turntable into a cheaper amp and speakers. The Marantz/Sir Galahad system blew the Rock sourced system into the weeds, big style. His aim was to show that the advent of the CD player had turned the source first philosophy on its head. It was reported in the mags, but the back pedalling by the same mags didn't take long to follow.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I had heard similar stories to that. I'm sure some of that went on though there may also be an element of urban myth attached as well.

Either way, the Linn story and its negative practices and influence on UK hifi are not pleasant I would agree.

What about source first, garbage in / garbage out? Some credit there perhaps, though they might have stolen that from IBM....in true marketing style.

There is no urban myth, I lived through and traded through it, if you saw half the tricks they got up to it would make your toes curl. There was a time that if Ivor didn't approve then a product was not sold in *his* agencies which were basically the largest and most profitable of the dealers, between him and Naim they managed to see off a large number of new AND established companies. I could list them for you. Did you know his *illegal* dealer contracts made sure he was paid before anyone else and one of the major ways to kill a company was to make sure the dealers didn't pay them - you are seriously naive if you think all this is urban myth.

What do you thing the NAD3020 thing was, it was an Ivor creation and corruption. Linn needed a cheap amp, Naim couldn't make one, Linn weren't yet making amps. Turntable first so for people with little money a cheap amp was needed so he could sell more LP12, in the end he decided to do a cheaper TT, which was another piece of crap. He told *his* dealers, via his reps and direct, and *his* reviewers, so the NAD3020 became another created flavour of the month but this one got legs and stayed around for a couple of years. It is not even a very good amplifier, but it had the Flat Earth distortion and character. The previous NAD models from the 1970's when Acoustic Research distributed them were FAR better.

You seriously don't know the half of it.

[Geoff.R.G]

Normally a Google search for a specific product generates a range of opinions both positive and negative, some products however only seem to have positive opinions. I find that disturbing because there will always be contrary views on pretty much anything. One such seems to be the NAD 3020, at the time it was released around 1979/80 I was using a Luxman receiver and had already decided that my next upgrade would be to separate pre and power amplification so I never really took any notice of it. Google LP12 and you will be several pages in before finding any opinions at all.

Where is the balanced reporting of these, and other, products? Surely they aren't so perfect that nobody has a bad word to say about them.

If you Google Teac X10 you find the warts soon enough, the pinch roller mechanism problem is evident very quickly, as are the supposed fixes. (The articles I read all implied that you can fix the problem without disassembly but you can't.)

Any product that doesn't have any negative feedback surely needs to be looked at with some suspicion.

[antonio66]

I was certainly 'conned' into believing source first although I did go a slightly different way. If I was starting out now finding a pair of speakers would be first on my list and working backwards from there. I blame magazines as much as Linn and Naim for promoting this bulls..t.

[Firebug1]

Linn and Naim owners are so sure that they have best gear on planet that if anything negative is said about their gear, you would be stoned to death at no time...

[Copperblue]

I had heard similar stories to that. I'm sure some of that went on though there may also be an element of urban myth attached as well.

Either way, the Linn story and its negative practices and influence on UK hifi are not pleasant I would agree.

What about source first, garbage in / garbage out? Some credit there perhaps, though they might have stolen that from IBM....in true marketing style.

There is no urban myth, I lived through and traded through it, if you saw half the tricks they got up to it would make your toes curl. There was a time that if Ivor didn't approve then a product was not sold in *his* agencies which were basically the largest and most profitable of the dealers, between him and Naim they managed to see off a large number of new AND established companies. I could list them for you. Did you know his *illegal* dealer contracts made sure he was paid before anyone else and one of the major ways to kill a company was to make sure the dealers didn't pay them - you are seriously naive if you think all this is urban myth.

What do you thing the NAD3020 thing was, it was an Ivor creation and corruption. Linn needed a cheap amp, Naim couldn't make one, Linn weren't yet making amps. Turntable first so for people with little money a cheap amp was needed so he could sell more LP12, in the end he decided to do a cheaper TT, which was another piece of crap. He told *his* dealers, via his reps and direct, and *his* reviewers, so the NAD3020 became another created flavour of the month but this one got legs and stayed around for a couple of years. It is not even a very good amplifier, but it had the Flat Earth distortion and character. The previous NAD models from the 1970's when Acoustic Research distributed them were FAR better.

You seriously don't know the half of it.

I guess I don't. I bought my first real hifi in the early 1980's when I was doing my A levels - well real to me anyway, AR turntable with Glanz cartridge, Rotel amp (which I preferred over a Nad 3020) and Heybrook HB1s

However, what I do know when I heard my first full on "big" hifi system in the mid-80's it was a Linn / Naim system and it was the best hifi I had heard, it was amazing. That is my experience being oblivious to the shenanigans of Ivor and his cronies. Those extreme activities Linn undertook do not change my memories and a certain fondness to the LP12. As my understanding of what went on increased over the years and my personal experience changed then my view of Linn as a company changed for the worst.

You make Ivor sound like a Scottish mix of Nixon, Idi Amin and Donald Trump.........i don't have that personal experience but respect yours.

[Copperblue]

I was certainly 'conned' into believing source first although I did go a slightly different way. If I was starting out now finding a pair of speakers would be first on my list and working backwards from there. I blame magazines as much as Linn and Naim for promoting this bulls..t.

In my experience system synergy and interaction with the room acoustics are keys to a good musical experience - as well as the basic quality of the components themselves being acceptable. (Otherwise why be writing on such a forum, go and listen to am radio...) Before source first, there was the source doesn't really matter as long as it measures well. Then came source first as a reaction to that. Both are incomplete

[Copperblue]

......oh and source first was good marketing strategy for a company making record players in Scotland

[antonio66]

"You make Ivor sound like a Scottish mix of Nixon, Idi Amin and Donald Trump.." I think the Doc will agree with that.

Looking back with hindsight it would have been good to compare the LP12 with Roksan, PT, DD's, etc. When I purchased my LP12, we demo'ed again a Rega 3, Linn Basic and LP12. The LP12 came tops, that and mag reviews is why it was purchased. Yes I was naive but we all have to start somewhere.