Accurate or musical

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Geoff.R.G
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Geoff.R.G » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:48 pm

One problem I see here is that for many people their experience of music is almost exclusively recorded music. There are people who have never heard live music so have no idea what it sounds like. If you have no idea how an acoustic guitar really sounds you have no basis on which to judge accuracy in recorded sound?

We already acknowledge that specifications and graphs give no clue as to the sound a piece of equipment makes. We accept that nobody really know what makes a Stradivarius sound so special but some, not regular visitors here, will accept the word "accurate" in a review and believe that what they will hear is the authentic sound of what ever they chose to play. Without the experience of lave music they will never know whether what they hear is accurate or not. Unfortunately the experience of live music can cause the brain to fill the gaps in recordings making it almost impossible to judge whether the reproduction is accurate or not.

If you can engage with the music your system produces and it stirs the emotions you can consider it good, if not you have a problem.

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Lotus Seven S
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Lotus Seven S » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:02 pm

As far as I can see Geoff you belong to the second class of understanding with its emphasis on what music does to you (whether you are engaged and stirred or shaken). But then you have a little bit of nostalgia for the cleansing experience of live music as if this and this alone belongs to the world of direct experience, which we then can transfer to the inferior home experience.

The way out of that knot is just to stop thinking in terms of accuracy or musicality, which are both attempts to objectify the world (and sell boxes), whilst pretending that we do not exist.

But we do exist - and we must each find our own ruler - and enjoy our music at home.

S.
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savvypaul
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by savvypaul » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 pm

Live, acoustic, amplified, at venue or at home...

...does it engage you? Do you stop thinking about everything else? Do you stop talking? Do you relax (into the music)?

I see such engagement (or lack of), very obviously, at bake-offs.

Describe why.

(The term 'accuracy' is, ironically, difficult to quantify.)
"And what I call pleasure you may call pain...I’m talking five-day Tests"

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:07 pm

It is because of the invention of the term Hi-Fidelity in the early 50's to differentiate from radios etc

As here

High fidelity (often shortened to hi-fi or hifi) reproduction is a term used by home stereo listeners, audiophiles and home audio enthusiasts to refer to high-quality reproduction of sound to distinguish it from the lower quality sound produced by inexpensive audio equipment, or the inferior quality of sound reproduction that can be heard in recordings made until the late 1940s.

In the 1950s, audio manufacturers employed the phrase high fidelity as a marketing term to describe records and equipment intended to provide faithful sound reproduction. While some consumers simply interpreted high fidelity as fancy and expensive equipment, many found the difference in quality between "hi-fi" and the then standard AM radios and 78 rpm records readily apparent and bought 33⅓ LPs such as RCA's New Orthophonics and London's ffrr (Full Frequency Range Recording, a UK Decca system); and high-fidelity phonographs. Audiophiles paid attention to technical characteristics and bought individual components, such as separate turntables, radio tuners, preamplifiers, power amplifiers and loudspeakers. Some enthusiasts even assembled their own loudspeaker systems. In the 1950s, hi-fi became a generic term for home sound equipment, to some extent displacing phonograph and record player.

In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the development of the Westrex single-groove stereophonic record cutterhead led to the next wave of home-audio improvement, and in common parlance, stereo displaced hi-fi. Records were now played on a stereo. In the world of the audiophile, however, the concept of high fidelity continued to refer to the goal of highly accurate sound reproduction and to the technological resources available for approaching that goal. This period is regarded as the "Golden Age of Hi-Fi", when vacuum tube equipment manufacturers of the time produced many models considered endearing by modern audiophiles, and just before solid state (transistorized) equipment was introduced to the market, subsequently replacing tube equipment as the mainstream technology.

Me again

Even in the early days the focus was on getting accuracy, and very few people even talked about the music. The first to my knowledge was Ed Vilchur (Acoustic Research) who arranged live v recorded sessions in theatres to promote AR loudspeakers. But even he was largely objective in his descriptions. Linn took this further with their marketing but just for marketing and their brainwash, and just for certain type of music, plinky plonky. It has taken the modern day and mostly motivated here, for people to review the music in the context of the changes equipment changes impose, which in the process reviews the hi-fi.

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Lotus Seven S
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Lotus Seven S » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm

Describe why.
Some things engage us. Some things don't. That's why. No other reason is needed or should be given (in my world).

As individual world-builders some things click (can be incorporated in our present world or intrigue us) and some things don't.

I would think it is best to follow our engagement and thus expand our world. Boring things must be left to others, who engage with it.

(Of course marketing can poison our world by smart talk - introducing foreign elements into our world-structure against which we are defenseless. The crunch comes when the smart talk (the icons of desire) collide with "reality", such as at a bake-off, where commonsense rallies up against all the lies and deception we have been fed.)

S.
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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:25 pm

"The crunch comes when the smart talk (the icons of desire) collide with "reality", such as at a bake-off, where commonsense rallies up against all the lies and deception we have been fed."

:clap:

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savvypaul
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by savvypaul » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:47 pm

Lotus Seven S wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm
Describe why.
Some things engage us. Some things don't. That's why. No other reason is needed or should be given (in my world).
"This does / does not engage me" would be a concise review but maybe not the most insightful :lol:

I know what you mean, though.
"And what I call pleasure you may call pain...I’m talking five-day Tests"

NVA BMU / WTL Versalex / Transfiguration Axia /NVA Phono2 w/ 2nd PSU / GSP Revelation C / Vortexbox Appliance NAS Server / Sonore microRendu USB streamer w/ LPSU / Chord 2Qute USB dac / NVA P90sa / NVA A80MK2 (bass) / NVA A70 MK2 (tweeters) / NVA Cube 1 / NVA TIS MK1 / NVA SSPMK2 / NVA LS6 / NVA AP10H (& 1x additional PS) / Audeze LCD-2

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karatestu
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by karatestu » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:02 pm

Smart talk - I like it. Another way of saying new speak.
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Lurcher300b
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Lurcher300b » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:18 pm

There is no understanding without speech (and of course lots of misunderstanding). Even the measuring instruments of objectivists are based on speech. We live in a totally human world.
Any deaf person or mathematician would say you were wrong there.

Lurcher300b
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Re: Accurate or musical

Unread post by Lurcher300b » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:43 pm

Accurate' should be 'musical' too, but bear in mind that real live acoustic instruments aren't always overly 'musical' when played straight at you (trumpets rasp, violins can sound like strangled cats-with-a-cold and drums will push you into the back wall :lol: ).
That seems to me to be conflating musical with easy on the ear or "nice". Miles Davis (for example) should rasp, and if it didn’t it woun't be accurate or musical IMHO. I have never found real life instruments to be anything other than what they are, Now if you are talking about poor PA systems that’s an entirely different kettle of fish.

One of the biggest differences between my Mexican strat and my American standard are the pick-ups (which is why I changed the pickups on the Mex). The better pickups on the standard make me want to play with more treble and bite and edge, not less, anything that rounded that off and made it more "pleasant" would be losing a lot of the point of the instrument.

I think we are in danger of getting back to the distortion causes loudness discussion, without added distortion (all the way through the chain), violins can sound like strangled cats-with-a-cold and be correct and a joy to listen to.

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