Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

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Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by savvypaul »

An interesting post on the Tera Dak thread by CN. Thought I'd pick it up and run with it on a new thread...

I have several albums on my hard drive in both redbook and hi-res (24/96 or 24/192). Mostly the hi-res files sound either subtly better or quite obviously better, with the odd one where I think there's no real difference.

Is the difference I hear down to the sampling rate or (as has been suggested) due to remastering? Bottom line for me is that 'if it sounds better, it sounds better'...but are higher sample rates a genuine advance in SQ or a marketing tool to increase prices?
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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by Fretless »

(shifted this from another thread - better here)

Most of my Hi-Res files come from DVDA discs which often have 24bit/96KHz PCM files that can be played as 24bit WAV. These sound superb. The entire King Crimson 40th Anniversary edition has been issued in this manner and the SQ is just monstrous. A definite step up from standard CD in terms of space and definition.
I have also collected a lot of HDCD discs which contain a 20-bit signal compressed into the format. Expanding these to 24-bit files produces excellent results.

Since 95% of my collection is my own ripped CD's, I have no real problems with the standard 16bit/44.1KHz signals and find the music to be absolutely enjoyable. With one extra comment :
Any form of compression will affect the music, even FLAC.

In the 20-odd years that I have been playing around with Computer-based audio I have used many formats.
Started with MP3 - it was just a surprise to have music played from a datastream, did I care how it sounded?
Then Lame - an 'alternative' MP3 compression which sounds a little better, less flat.
Ogg Vorbis - used by Spotify, SQ is fuller than MP3. Nice format.
Apple Lossless - a period when my music system revolved around IPod Classic devices. We're heading towards Hifi here!
FLAC - far, far better than ALAC. I thought FLAC was as good as it gets.

But. As my system improved (especially the streaming source components when I discovered the joys of Pi's and HAT's) then very subtle variations become more apparent. The effect of 'jitter' from interconnect cables, the noisiness of USB links. Computer audio can get as tricky as setting up an LP12!

During one of my manic experiments I compared uncompressed WAV files against FLAC, ripped from the same CD. There IS a difference and it ain't small. 16bit WAV is a superb format if you just leave it alone - in these days of Terabyte storage there is actually no reason to compress your music files at all, except if you want the convenience of file-tagging, which WAV does not support.
FLAC noticeably 'flattens' and 'dries' the music - it may have the same depth and the dynamic slam but the music loses fluidity, depth and richness.

It does mean that I am slowly re-ripping my 5000+ CD-collection, again. Well, the ones I really want to listen to anyway. For some things FLAC and ALAC will be sufficient...

...for now. :ugeek:

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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by Fretless »

As an addition to the above, my experience with 'real' Hi-Res is fairly limited.

I did have, for a while, a Hegel DAC which I got to use for DSD playback. With there being relatively little available as DSD (Classical music excepted) that facility was almost unused. The DAC went to be replaced by the non-DSD Musette, which sounded better.

MQA I have never heard and because it requires a new, and expensive device to play it, I suspect it has more to do with marketing.

DSD is a widely-used recording format and I occasionally go over to the mastering studio of Channel Classics for a coffee with Jared and hear what he is working on. The studio has a surround-sound setup of enormously expensive Grimm loudspeakers and to sit there listening to high-level DSD surround recordings straight from the mixing-desk is a real thrill.

But I'm still happy to get back to my NVA - he doesnt know what he's missing. :grin:

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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by Fretless »

Just run a quick AB with King Crimson 'Lark's Tongues ' which I happen to have in both 16/44.1 and 24/96 on my NAS. The same new mix from the 40th Anniversary Series.

The hi-res version does sound appreciably fuller and richer, better definition around the instruments which are more 'tactile'.

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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by Lurcher300b »

During one of my manic experiments I compared uncompressed WAV files against FLAC, ripped from the same CD. There IS a difference and it ain't small.
If you are hearing a difference then it must be down to the effect of the extra work on whatever part of the system is converting FLAC to PCM as after its converted the data stream is identical.

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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by slinger »

I resample via Volumio and after a lot of too-ing and fro-ing I believe I get the best results using multiples i.e. 44.1 > 88.2 > 176.4 and so on - a.k.a. Integer Resampling

I've currently got my sample-rate set to 176.4 (any higher seems to make no appreciable difference) but I leave the "Target Bit Rate" set to "Native"
I'm not saying it's the best way to do it, but it's achieved optimal results in my system.

Resampling using integers just makes the most sense to me. I know one probably shouldn't "assume" but there are so many differing "correct" answers on the interweb it's safer. In fact, if you believe the net then: "Indeed, it will not improve the sound, and in fact will add a small amount of noise. Plus it will make your files much larger."

As I say, there's loads of info on the net about resampling, upsampling, oversampling, and it'll set your head spinning. The only decent way to find out what method is "best" is to fiddle with the settings and use your ears.
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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by vrazjigwb »

Lurcher300b wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:20 pm
During one of my manic experiments I compared uncompressed WAV files against FLAC, ripped from the same CD. There IS a difference and it ain't small.
If you are hearing a difference then it must be down to the effect of the extra work on whatever part of the system is converting FLAC to PCM as after its converted the data stream is identical.
This should be fairly easy to try IMO - try uncompressing your FLACs back to WAV and see if there still is a difference.

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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by Fretless »

Been there, done that. :grin:

I get the difference across the board. Running file-based audio via PC, Sonos, Pi's with boards from Allo and Hifiberry - even the Fiio player in the car. WAV sounds 'more' than FLAC.

To my ears anyway. :dance:

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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by montechristo358 »

have you tried non compressed flac? its what i use just for the tags
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Re: Hi-res sample rates - a genuine improvement in SQ, or a marketing trick?

Unread post by CN211276 »

I was a late convert to computer audio and did not get an mp3 player until just over ten years ago. It was another five years before I took computer audio seriously in hifi terms. This started when I dipped a toe in the water with a purchase of an Audioquest Dragonfly Black DAC. Things took off from there coupled with the discovery of NVA through this forum. My interest in hifi which had been dormant for thirty years because of all the flat earth brain washing nonsense was rekindled.

Back to the topic, to my ears higher sample rates do make a big difference. I have found that ripped 16Bit 44.1kHz CDs achieve another dimension at 705.6kHz. I believe this is to do with the reproduction of transients and the effect this has on expanding the sound stage. This certainly complements what Cubes do so well. I had a wow experience when I first heard Cubes and this has been enhanced by the Mscaler. I think speakers are the most important component in reproducing the benefits of upscaling. Today I substituted the P20 from the bedroom system into the main system when the P90SA was sent for the upgrade. Although the P20 is out performed by the P90SA in many areas, the benefits of upscaling are still very apparent.

That said I cannot deny that there is a lot of marketing associated with higher sample rates. This has been taken to a new level by Amazon with the introduction of their HD streaming tier. Who is going to hear the improvement on one of their play back devices. I have had recent experience of one of there Echo/Alexa thingys and it is blown away by my Bose Mini Soundlink fed by USB Audio Player Pro. Amazon HD would sound better if it was compatible with third party Apps such as UAPP, but this is against their policy. I hold UAPP in high esteem as it upsamples to 96kHz with a huge SQ improvement through my headphones connected to either my AQ Dragonfly Red or Chord Mojo. It also takes the Bluetooth Arcam Mini Blink connected to the bedroom system to another level.

Along with higher sample rates I find that remastering also provides significant SQ gains in nearly all cases. For this reason I generally prefer Qobuz streams to my ripped CDs, many of which are 24Bit which I find improves dynamics.

Nearly all of my CDs have been ripped to FLAC and I am unable to detect much difference between this and WAV, certainly in comparison to what is achieved by upsampling and remastering.
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