I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

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_D_S_J_R_
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I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

Doc and all, thanks so much for allowing me to be here and lately, to be able to turn to the dark side :twisted:

The SC and LS5 are superb IMO and can easily be used safely in any half decent system. The 'normal' stuff I'm using is a fig 8 version of the old Cable Talk 4.1, which sold for £4.50m. No 'edge' or 'grain' but perhaps a little full bodied in tone (the related 3.1 could be a little stark and 'HiFi' in direct comparison, but still tons better than QED SA). The LS5 reminds me of the heavier duty CT Concert 2 I used to sell, but possibly better, the sound being more 'positive' and better in the bass, yet totally unforced - the way I expect a heavier duty cable of quality to provide.

Put it this way, I'm not sure I want to give the LS5 back, so there! (I'll confirm prices and deal with it accordingly...)

Now to the AP20! Forgive the sort-of mini-review, but some readers may never have experienced the brand hands-on before.

Firstly, the subjective feelings about the box itself HAVE to be stated I think. Carefully unwrapping it reminded me of the Croft stuff I love so much. This sample even looks a bit like an old Croft too, volume on the left and input selector on the right - hell, even my old SMA IVPP has the same bloody knobs on! The feeling that one man assembled it appeals to me as well. The panels fit and are finished nicely too - maybe some info on keeping the finish wouldn't do any harm as shiny finishes and greasy mitts don't mix... The volume control feels very slick and the selector is light to operate.

Connecting up and operating couldn't be easier. Since the ONLY requirement is careful choice of speaker cables, I don't think this is a big deal at all in this instance. The phono sockets are perfectly ok for the likes of SC and SSC and the 4mm sockets happily accept the 'Z Plugs' soldered to the LS5 cables. neat, tidy and no risk of nasty amp-destroying shorts.

Now, I play at very low volume most of the time so any amp I use is barely ticking over. The little system I use in the 'office' comprises of, for CD, Denon 1520 as transport into the 'Ton-Up' Digit, AVI S2000MP+P pre with HH VX300 power amp into Rogers LS5/9 speakers. The speakers were designed 'flat' but something happened post development and all production samples have a 'distant' perspective, along with the larger active LS5/8 model. The bass on these 5/9's can be very 'squidgy' and full-of-itself if not sited properly, but the mid is very open and clear, given half a chance. After giving the AP20 ten minutes or so to stabilise (it sounded a bit 'forced' on first switch-on) I was stunned by how much better the bass quality was. I'm used to tight bass from my old Crown 'D' series power amps - they made a huge thing about high damping factor - and this is something the AP20 does in spades - but recent tellings off on other forums has persuaded me to not think about high damping factor being important. Well, this little amp redresses this big-time! since its output impedance is so low. The 5/9's don't go low enough to see how extended the perception of tight bass goes, but from lower-mid bass upwards, the quality is excellent and almost like going active. This sense of control seems to go into the midrange too, studio effects and reverb carelessly applied in a mix being easily reproduced. ABSOLUTELY NO HARSHNESS! Treble is clean and well reproduced. Can't go deeper as my gear and ears aren't really good enough. Definitely a monitor-grade amp and highly addictive in its sonics.

If I do get to visit hifi dave next week, I'm glad I'd be allowed to take the AP20 over for a comparison with what I still regard as the best universal all-rounder for general purpose use at around five hundred notes. Currently, I'm thinking the AP20 may well be a tier or two above this, but ONLY if you use the recommended cables (the Brio R has to be more all-things-to-all-men I think, so summat will have to give in the process I believe).

Finally, just to say I think that this is the sort of amp Naim should have started making. Clear, tight as a drum without drying the sonics out, superb imaging and totally without the treble grain and thumpy bass the current models have. That ancient RCA PA circuit Naim still use/abuse really has come to the end and things have moved well on now. One day, I'd love to try the bigger NVA amps, but for now, the only other amp manufacturer that comes to mind with a similar sort of presentation is Albarry, and despite the silly prices as dictated by one of the northern stockists, the presentation is very similar. These amps, and definitely including the AP20, make passive speakers sound more like good active ones and even though the Doc loathes BBC inspired designes with a passion, I can honestly say I can think of few other amps and speakers that would do the job as well, let alone better..

Thanks again for letting me try this :guiness;
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way...The time has gone, The song is over, Thought I'd something more to say...

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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

nice post with interesting views ds . :D

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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Andrew »

Nicely written, Dave. I for one have been really pleased you joined us and shared your knowledge and experience.

The AP20 I had was just crazily good, so it's lovely to hear someone else enjoying the same experience and getting a kick out of it too! Far from the dark side, I reckon you're seeing the light, brother :lol:

One thing I don't get is the valve snobbery many people have in relation to amps. It's perfectly ok to have a "high end" low power valve integrated, yet many snobs would never be able to live with a similarly powered solid state integrated, especially something that's just insane value for money.

Truth be told, IMO the AP20 will likely see off all of the ARCs, Krells, Brystons, Aragons, McIntoshs etc, I've dabbled with, unless you're driving something really difficult or looking to wake the dead. If it had valves sticking out of the top and a bigger price tag, it would be seen in a different light.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

"The panels fit and are finished nicely too - maybe some info on keeping the finish wouldn't do any harm as shiny finishes and greasy mitts don't mix..."

Windolene and micro fibre cloth.

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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by southall-1998 »

Nice write up, DSJR. Very enjoyable read indeed!

The AP20 is still in my ''want list'' I will someday buy one because it will provide more power over my AP10PX. Another NVA integrated I also want to hunt someday is the mighty NVA AP80 (Discontinued) The AP80 will certainly push my Neat Petite speakers in a small-medium sized room.

S.
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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Classicrock »

Nice write up Dave. Looking forward to the comparison with the Rega Brio. Interesting your comparison to Albarry which I use and am thinking of trying one of the Doc's pre's with. I didn't pay anywhere near dealer price for these but similar to cost of A80. One thing with Albarry and a passive (or most valve pres) is a buffer stage is necessary IMO (using Lehmann, again lucking out on one at half retail). The most affordable buffer stage at retail price is the IFi which also does some (unnecessary) tricks. Experience of past Rega amps would suggest there should be no contest in favour of the NVA.
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_D_S_J_R_
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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

The Albarry's have a pitifully low input impedance of 1K5 (1.5k? not 15k) I think (gawd, I hope I have this right), so may well NEED a suitable active buffer to drive them (HELP!!!), so a passive volume feeder may not be ideal in this particular instance..

I love the 608 power amps, but didn't feel the same way about their preamp I heard a couple of years ago. Apparently, this has been worked on and now sounds rather better-free-er now, so if I can visit next week as planned, I'll let you lot know.

The little AP20 doesn't take prisoners at all, iffy compressed recordings being presented exactly as-is with no sonic-sweetening to mask it. A top quality source of any persuasion is mandatory here I think and shouty 'monitor' style speakers will be a very demanding listen I feel. I do get the need to play more music with it though, so it's doing its job right :)

I should add that I haven't pushed it in terms of volume and if I were to own one, I'd ask if the volume control law could be adjusted a tad to enable more of its use to be used very low down (I'm using the phono stage of the AVI preamp and from its straight-through output, there's similar gain to a CD player). I'm only using the first couple of notches on the scale and the pot can go awry on channel balance very low down (I've a way to fix this by turning 'down' to the level I need, rather than 'up.' This wouldn't affect more normal listeners I know, since above the first volume 'notch' on the scale, channel balance is audibly perfect for my needs.

Still very pleased with it and no reason to return to the usual setup.
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way...The time has gone, The song is over, Thought I'd something more to say...

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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Classicrock »

Dave. The Albarrys are 5.1Kohm input impedance so need 100 ohm output or lower idealy. The Lehmann gives 60 ohm output from a 47K input so should make most preamps compatible. Would try the Croft but worried it also has unusually high gain as standard from what I have read. Surprised pot on the NVA doesn't give you more room on the volume as I thought Richard used Log scale.
Last edited by Classicrock on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

I always thought it was odd that Albarry produced a passive pre-amp back when. I understand it came about because the distributor (and S Manchester retailer) Bespoke Audio, sadly no longer with us as they imported Alison speakers and pushed the Trio L07D turnatbles as well. I supplied them with NVA which they liked as well and they felt a cheaper pre-amp would help Albarry sales, so having heard NVA passives they asked the man to make one. It was never a correct impedance match so IMO never worked well.

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Re: I've been turned to the dark side :lol:

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Classicrock wrote:Dave. .The Albarrys are 5.1Kohm input impedance so need 100 ohm output or lower idealy. The Lehmann gives 60 ohm output from a 47K input so should make most preamps compatible. Would try the Croft but worried it also has unusually high gain as standard from what I have read. Surprised pot on the NVA doesn't give you more room on the volume as I thought Richard used Log scale.
Yes it is log, but there are many log variants. Even with a log pot you still have to have a reasonable level match. Macca had this problem so I had stepped attenuators made that have more control at the start, but you can't get special pots made as the track is printed in the thousands or millions. A stepped attenuator can be fitted to all NVA integrated amps (apart from AP10) so a special can be made.

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