Scottish Independence

[floydfan]

I am a Scot who hasn't decided yet but the comments of kimangelis are spot on. I do not sing along to Flower of Scotland and did support England in the World Cup but share the "socialist" outlook of the majority of Scots.
The biggest reason for me to vote yes is David Cameron. The Conservative Party can barely hold it's deposit in a General Election in Scotland and yet we have to suffer the old boys network running our Country. Maggie just about destroyed Scotland and in fact we have not yet recovered from her efforts to crush us.
The biggest reason to say no, for me, is that I know lots of English people and they seem perfectly normal some of my family have even married in England and I have nieces and nephews who have always lived in England and two of my brothers have lived most of their lives there and married lovely English girls. I would not like to weaken our relationship with the PEOPLE of England.

[Daniel Quinn]

You both make excellent points. But we are a collective and you shouldn't abandon us in our time of need.

[kimangelis]

Not sure what you are saying Daniel Quinn. In need of what exactly?
As for a collective.... perhaps that was the case pre-Thatcher 80's, but certainly not now. It's arguable that Scotland need (the economy of) England more than England need Scotland, and it's equally arguable the majority of English don't give a hoot about the Scots per se, or their independence.
The main arguments for the 'Better Together' campaign have been economic, the facts of which cannot be ignored or overlooked. However, one should not define yourself as what you expect to gain or lose in a material sense.
As some wit pointed out, there are more Pandas in Scotland than Conservative MP's. This country has been stripped of its industry, and with it (perhaps) a lot of self-esteem. Not sure that Scotland has a Socialist so much as an egalitarian ideal.... But I prefer living here with the sectarian shenanigans, bad pies and worse weather than most of the time I spent in England.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I don't see the logic, Cornwall, Wales, Cumbia, N.E, they all have the same complaint about centralised government as happens in just about every other country in the world. There is as much, if not more, difference culturally between Wales and England than Scotland and England. AND being a lowland Scot you know perfectly well that the highlanders don't consider you a proper Scot. FFS go back 300 years and the next town to you was like another country.

I find it fatuous and self serving, it is like a Disneyland version or reality has descended on the debate. Virtually all the *so called* Scottish culture that is sold abroad is a Victorian invention by the English (German) monarchy and others who wanted a highland playground to occupy their summers. Even the Kilt was just a blanket because the crofters and clan members were so poor and primitive that is all they could afford.

As far as I am concerned we (and I mean both of us together) should just bite the bullet and fully join the EU and the Euro and accept the world is getting smaller, and that we need to be more joined not less joined. The next step for me which I see as very important is joining the North American free trade zone with the EU one, the benefits are ENORMOUS and yet all we can do is argue about ego and history / nose out of joint / get yer own back for what happened to the Stuarts type of discussion, and little Englander type disdain of foreigners. It is time we all grew up!

[Daniel Quinn]

Electorally , for about 15 years , Scottish independence will be bad for the left , it is likely to see conservative governments rule for 3 more terms .

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

The political answer DQ is full proportional representation so that every Government is a coalition so there HAS to be consensus.

[jammy395]

I have to vote by Proxy as im offshore........Shona says she knows what to do.

Ilogical or what.......jpg (10.25 KiB) Viewed 1808 times

[kimangelis]

The NE and NW of England were asked some five years ago if they would like more regional government based on Newcastle and Manchester, as is the case in Spain. Both regions voted against such devolution citing further layers of administration with no tangible benefits. The Scots have some independence now (if independence is not an absolute) and have their own judicial and education systems, history and culture.
Agreed a lot of the culture is manufactured (kilts, cartoon haggis, Nessie et al) and seems to hinge about who won what battle and when. However if that is put to one side (as it should), and accepting that Lowland Scots aren't really dissimilar to Highland Scots.... Or at least only as different as the people of Wessex are from Northumbrians, Mercians or any other region of England..... Then the difference is that Scotland was a separate and unified kingdom up to 1707 and are of a relatively common ancestry stretching back 2000 years or so. Whereas England is a collection of tribes from what are now Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and France, that only came together about 1100 years ago.
Fundamentally it's of importance to the Scots and is no-one else's concern. If the Scots vote for independence, it will happen, If not then it won't.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Your having a laf'. Scottish history is the history of the Irish Celts, the Danish Vikings, Northumbrian Angles and a couple of indigenous tribes like the Picts (or as the Romans called them Caledonii) that were later largely suppressed by the Irish Celts and the Vikings. We are both bastard nations. The difference is you were never subject to Roman civilisation, at that stage the tribe throughout the islands had much in common. There is difference, there is a steady change in culture as you go north and the Northumbrians are to all intents and purposes lowland Scots in most things.

This whole process is fantasy and a load of old bollocks politics, with ambitious greedy people who want to wield their own power and slurp in their own trough, politicians are the same everywhere. As I said at the beginning apart from trying to argue some common sense I really couldn't give a shit if Scotland goes on its own, good luck to you, but I am pretty sure in my own mind it will be one big cock up, but as long as Spain allows you to have membership of the EU (still doubtful) it will be Brussels that bails you out not London, thank god.

AND it will block for all time Celtic and Rangers getting access to the Premier League.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

The other historical thing about genetics that few seem to understand is that an invading army like the Anglo Saxons or the Viking didn't bring women with them. They killed all the men and the man boys and kept the girls and the women for themselves, so half the indigenous gene pool survived.