Greece

[alfafan123]

Hi all,

Bit surprised this hasn't seemed to have come up yet here amongst you well read and worldly wise lot. Anyway this little disagreement amongst supposed EU friends seems to me to have the potential to spoil a lot of parties for those both directly and indirectly involved. Obviously its complex for example why did the EU let Greece join the EU when its economic figures didn't add up (to shore up the eastern Med for NATO?) but it beats me why Greece thinks its everyone else's fault. They borrowed the money and decided to blow it on extravagant pensions etc etc and now seem upset when they have to pay it back but can't and essentially are saying well if you want it paid back you'll have to lend us some more on preferential terms. I guess it's the old adage that if I owe the bank £1 then I have a problem but if I owe the bank £1M then they have a problem, well the bank certainly would in my case!

I have a high regard for Angele Merkel but even she will have trouble explaining to her people why the german taxpayer should stump up the the Euro 50Bn loan guarantees to Greece that will get called if/when Greece defaults and Hollande has a similar problem. I expect they are both praying it doesn't happen. Thank goodness we are not in the Eurozone.

Anybody any thoughts because I think we will be hearing a lot more about this in the coming weeks, months and indeed years whether we like it or not?

cheers

Chris

[joe]

It's all very fraught and complicated, and way beyond my ability to analyse, let alone resolve.

I am reminded of the story about a young man in difficulties, who sought advice from the Duke of Wellington, a distant relative. The Duke listened as the young man explained his predicament, thought for a while in silence, then responded:

'Sir, you have got yourself into a damned difficult predicament, and I would advise that you extricate yourself from it as best you can. Good day to you'.

[Daniel Quinn]

Not quite sure I agree with your synopsis . but

Greece should default, conditions for continued loans are unnecessary and unacceptable harsh on general population .

[Fretless]

Main worries here on the continent are the effect this could have on the stability of the Euro and interest rates. The ECB has been working hard to push interest rates down to help get out of the recent period of recession.

The Euro is intended as a 'once you're in, you're in' currency (same as the EU) and a country leaving the system is not what anybody wants. But can we afford to keep carrying Greece (Italy, Portugal and Spain)?

I have just reset the interest on my mortgage for the coming ten years, taking advantage of the low rates - and I think that I've done it just in time.

It is possible that the Greek government is playing bluff poker with the rest of Europe, counting on the fact that they won't let Greece down and will just write off a part of the debt. We wait with bated breath.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well it is obvious now that Greece should never have been in the Euro and was even dubious for membership of the EU. The people don't accept normal rules of business, everyone avoids taxes and the government and any form of authority like the Police take bribes instead. Who does it sound like, well Russia . I wouldn't be surprised if it raised loans from them and joined their version of the EU.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

So should we be scared of what is happening in Greece. IMO no, it plays into our hands. The Euro will become politically so weak as a concept it will only likely survive in its core countries, which is where it should have stayed. Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Lux. and even France is dodgy as long as it follows its current political path. The rest will go back to be like the UK, part of a free trade area, not some politicians pipe dream of a USofE. Interestingly if it goes back to its core then the Euro would become a much more economically acceptable option for us than it is at the moment, but politically I very much doubt it would ever be acceptable after all that has gone on. We now have a defacto Snake, if anyone remembers that, with the Euro area pegged to the Deutsche Mark (which just happens to be now called the Euro).

The other thing that will kill the idea of one Europe is Eastern and African migration and immigration, it is a bomb waiting to explode, and one by one the frontiers will be thrown up again.

Also it is not a question of if there will be a war between the West and Islam, I am afraid it has already started. It is very sad as a vast majority of Muslims are happy in the west, willing to abide and live within western culture and just practice their religion. BUT the problem is they are brainwashed from birth to consider us infidel, so they will always have half a heart with the extremists who see it basically in Black and White, convert or die. I see no answer to this but eventual full conflict which we obviously will try to hold off as long as we can, as that is our way. Compromise is what is needed and compromise requires an open mind, and that doesn't exist in full blown religious communities. We see it in extreme or born again Christians as we see it in Islam, the certainty that they are right.

[floydfan]

Thought I would chip in here although I am a bit politically naïve. I go every year to the Greek, Islands and find the people friendly and very helpful.
I have noticed that things are getting a bit more regulated with till receipts and accurate pricing etc. You even get a receipt for your sunbed. So they are trying but the easy cash culture is still there in the background.
As for extreme religious types;i have little direct contact with the Muslims but my experience with evangelical Christians suggest they could be as big a problem given the right circumstances They tend, in my experience, to be extremely arrogant and intolerant. In fact two of the nastiest people I have known are members of an evangelical Christian church. Not saying they are all like that but most that I have come in contact with were.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

The next most dodgy seems to be Italy, and what the markets are betting on is if like a house cards one goes they all fall. I think Germans (the people) are the most pissed off as they are stuck with an undervalued currency and most of the costs of trying to sort it. Angela Merkel may soon be wishing she was in Dave Camerons shoes with the chance to escape from it.

But yes the Greeks are nice affable people too your face but NEVER go into business with them, they will stitch you up, there is no business ethic. Talk to people who moved there and how many have been stitched up by the locals, Andrew was an example we had here, but his was southern Cyprus, but that has the same ethos and is effectively part of Greece.

[Macca]

The Euro is 100% a political idea created with the intention of it leading to a European super-state that would be run along the lines of the old Soviet Union i.e run without any democratic accountability and run badly. Communism by the back door. The only way to do it since no-one who lives in Europe wants it. Especially those nations that had to live with it for forty years.

That is why they broke their own rules by allowing the Greeks in even though they were woefully short of the essential criteria that had been created to prevent such issues.

Now they are breaking their own rules again by issuing 'bail out' loans. They will go to any stupid lengths they can to keep this disaster alive.

What the Greeks should have done is defaulted 2 years ago and gone back to the Drachma. If they had done that they would be in recovery by now. The longer they delay the worse it will get.

[Daniel Quinn]

To say the euro is a 100% political idea is nonesense , it as of course a economic purpose in that it is two stop exchange fluctuations between member states and promote economic trade between members, even out economic activity and stop the dominance of Germany .

You can of course argue that is it not fit for purpose but to collapse it solely to a political project is an idea you must have knicked from the daily mail