_D_S_J_R_ wrote:
I'm not doing a Marco FFS, I LOVE playing records, but there is a point where personal opinion tails away and indisputable facts come into the equation. Sorry, but there it is.
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How on earth can you remove personal opinion from listening? I'm done arguing the point. If you really think your OPINION is indisputable but anyone else's opinion which differs tails away then there's no point. Isn't the forum called hifi subjectivist? I feel like I've wandered into PFM.
Classicrock wrote:Dave if bass was monod on all Lps I wouldn't regularly listen to Lp were the bass is clearly mixed more to one channel or is in one channel. I also find that Lps subjectively often have well extended bass. Also it is impossible for the Cd to be accurate to the master tape unless it is a 16/44.1 recording. Cd has limited resolution even if you can throw up measurements to say it captures all the audio on the recording. there are also further losses in the manufacturing process (as is likely the case with vinyl). I have yet to hear examples were a Cd comprehensively outperforms a vinyl pressing of the same music - Sacd maybe. However modern Lps regularly outperform their equivalent Cd even taking into account loudness issues with Cd mastering. Most recordings now use a higher res digital format than Cd such that an analogue chain is better at preserving the recorded sound.
CD has resolution down to minus 96db which is the 16 bit limit. No pickup cartridge made can do more than 40db separation and even the worst ones at 20db - listen to the 'unspoken channel' and see how quiet it is!!! Our ears only have around a 40 to 50db dynamic range but this is on a sliding scale if we're lucky.
If you've yet to hear a CD outperform a record, either you're conditioned to the limited vinyl sound, or there's something wrong with your speakers (speakers are usually the culprit as they suffer severe distortion and phase anomalies at the crossover point)!
BASS to 'us' is usually 60 to 80Hz. DMM record cuts removed the sub 60Hz bass because you got mod noise in the playback if it was there. Lower than this means lots of 'squiggles' in the groove, which takes up room. Extreme deep bass left or right on a record will almost certainly make most pickups jump the groove and that's why it's mono'd as a matter of course. For mass produced commercial pressings, this was NORMAL and a fact of life. if you don't believe me, ask a cutting engineer who worked in the 60's to 80's!!!
Look, I've studied this thing ad nauseum, know 'my truth' to be factual as told and demonstrated to me, so cannot argue/reason about it any more. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RED BOOK CD if the mastering's been done properly and modern editing suites and 24 bit recording are entirely inaudible, as should be the maths to convert to red book 16/44. Fuggin 'ell fellas, FM radio, which itself adds loads of 2nd harmonic distortion, was piped around the UK on a THIRTEEN BIT digital signal, brick-walled at 15kHz and noise floor of minus 65db approx and all the audiophiles around praised the fantastic fidelity of live Radio 3 broadcasts. IT'S NOT THE FUGGIN' DIGITS causing the problem if you don't like the sound of digital!!!!!!!! The fact you prefer records speaks volumes about your system in all honesty - sorry, but I bet it's true!
Sheesh - I thought all this had been argued and proved beyond doubt years ago!!!!! I'm shutting up now.
I've heard this measurement argument time and time again. I can only go on what I have heard over the years. If CD was so brilliant sounding in comparison to vinyl I would have sucked up the'perfect sound forever' wholesale. Like many I thought CD was going to be the answer to all vinyl problems but was sorely disappointed on first hearing. I think I am getting the best sound I have ever from CD admittedly with 20 year old CD technology but nothing I have heard from the swankiest CD set up has beaten a relatively modestly priced vinyl front end. Did hear one expensive CD based system (with mega expensive speakers) at Whittlebury that would run top vinyl close (but at what cost?).
The fact is in practice and in a domestic setting within the realms of mildly sensible expenditure for whatever reason vinyl provides a more musical and believable rendition of the recording - irrespective of how accurate to master tape that is. For whatever reason (and I suspect mastering has much to do with it) real life CD and CD playback equipment doesn't quite do it in terms of providing maximum aural enjoyment. I long discovered that the path to overcoming vinyl's drawbacks is a combination of well engineered playback equipment and vinyl care. Of course the source material is all important and on average the vinyl LP produces a better sound even if this is a result of more attention to good mastering.
I don't think you can blame speakers though would agree some modern metal driver designs appear to highlight bright sounding CD and would sound better with most vinyl front ends. I think in terms of crossover design problems this is likely to affect all signal sources. As far as FM being 13 bit digital I would like to know when this started ( likely not before late 70s). Would explain how enjoyable FM radio was in the early to mid 70s when I used to record quite a few programmes to cassette. Certainly radio isn't what it used to be and has been on a downward spiral for at least 30 years.
As a child of the sixties, the majority of my favourite music purchased is on LP. Having said that, I've only bought a limited amount of second hand vinyl since 1990. It's been CD all the way. They are both wonderful. Dave is right about the original Genesis LP's IMHO. Poor sound for such superb music. And Then There Were Three suffers really bad in this respect. I haven't heard the CD' though, only Trespass & The Lamb. Things seemed to change when Hugh Padgham came on board. Well, sonically speaking, many would argue the music wasn't as good as the vintage period.
Technics SL1210 (Timestep power supply, Mike New Bearing) Audio Origami RB300 / Dynavector DV10x5
Pioneer DVD300 / Topping E30 or AAAA5 cd player.
Audio Innovations Series 500
Heco Direkt Einklang
Headphones - Musical Fidelity A1 / AKG K1000
_D_S_J_R_ wrote:I'm glad people haven't forgotten the tactile feel of an LP record and its sleeve and the whole 'procedure' in playing it.
I do have to question 'better sound' of vinyl though. Have you any idea what has to be done to a recording, especially a good modern one, to get the music into that groove? Deep bass has to be all but removed and remaining bass put into mono, which usually adds phase distortion. Loud midrange signals are routinely compressed on 33rpm discs (less so on 12" 45's if at all) and the treble used to be 'de essed' even before the vinyl itself added its own compression, which it undeniably does.
Now, I really DO love playing vinyl records, especially via an NVA phono stage but with the experience and knowledge I have, it's a separate and very wholesome experience for me, and 'high fidelity to the original source/mastering session' just doesn't come into it. Most audiophile turntables are so far removed from 'reality' it's not true, even if many audiophiles prefer the sound to 'digital.'
OK, rant over. Apologies for possibly ruffling some feathers.
Ruffle away sunshine - I grew up with digital and spent many years building systems around it but I now no longer own a CD player!
I never found the digital sound harsh or relentless, in fact it was hard to fault, technically, it just never hit the spot emotionally, never has it would seem. Haven't got a clue why this is the case, quite possibly down to technical failings with vinyl which make it more " human", I don't know, don't really care.
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Audio Grail "Sable" Garrard 401 with Cumbrian Green Slate plinth / Audiomods 6 / Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC, Parasound JC3+, NVA INT400sa. (Oh and a Copland CDA823 CD Player, for when I fancy a bit of the devil's spawn!)
Get the CD and do the same to see if it really is the recording.
It really is the recording. What else could it be?
Anyone is welcome to get the CD version of Solitude Standing and pass it through Audacity's diagnostics to see if it gives a similar frequency spectrum to my vinyl version.
There's nothing to stop anyone else doing a few vinyl needledrops themselves to see how much 20 to 40 hz frequency content there is on a variety of records.
On Wishbone Ash's 12" single version of You See Red, for example, there's not as much going on at 20 hz as there is on the Suzanne Vega track, but there's still more going on at 30 hz than there is at any frequency above 1 khz.
How many frequency spectrum charts of vinyl needledrops would you like me to make and post on here before you admit that vinyl can do 20 to 40 hz well enough without the needle jumping?
Gents I did not claim genesis on vinyl was good. Indeed my moanings about the bass shy compressed sound of some can be found in at least 20 posts on this very forum. I said i preferred vinyl to cd . It analogous to the way i prefer sex without a condom :grin
but with the experience and knowledge I have, it's a separate and very wholesome experience for me, and 'high fidelity to the original source/mastering session' just doesn't come into it. Most audiophile turntables are so far removed from 'reality' it's not true, even if many audiophiles prefer the sound to 'digital.'
- I grew up with digital and spent many years building systems around it but I now no longer own a CD player! 
