GENERAL ELECTION JUNE 8TH 2017

[Daniel Quinn]

That sounds like the Daily Mail The myth of the British worker ,

industrial action in the 60s was not an issue

The problem with the British Economy in the 60's and 70's was chronic underinvestment and piss poor management. Whilst America and Japan were investing , our management were doing bugger all. A "lazy" British worker may take an age to build a car but the fact that car is a load of shit , is not his fault . The economy tanked and inflation rocketed not because of strikes but because of poor management . And when both governments went after the workers to resolve their problems the Unions naturally protected their own . They did not create the problem . If you are making money working me to death , then it is natural to say , I want a share or I want better conditions .

This remains a problem . we work longer for less money than anywhere else and yet our productivity remains the lowest in Europe .

Additionally , productivity is a capitalist word , even a flogged horse gives up eventually . The debate should be about fair work , fair conditions and fair pay .

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I have said it before and I will say it again, even though it was made as comedy the most accurate documentary of the British disease at it built up to its height in the 70's when the unions actually took effective control of some industries, was "I'm alright Jack", I recommend EVERYONE watch it who hasn't, it accurately shows social attitudes that are behind all our problems, and we are still recovering from it. Do you really want to go back to that, as humour aside that is the way it was.

http://mymovie-dl.com/item/4882/im-all-right-jack-1959

[Lurcher300b]

when the unions actually took effective control of some industries

Out of interest, who do you think should control industries, and why?

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well in that case even the Daily Mail is right sometimes. I say again I am not going on bollocks from anyone. I lived through it, I saw it, I witnessed it. I worked with people with the British disease. Yes bad management otherwise we wouldn't have put up with it. Underinvestment because people wouldn't risk their money on the British worker so the government had to do it. Known as nationalisation = unions and workers take over in order to get as much as they can for as little work as possible, we had the worst productivity of any so called advanced nation, lazy sods who didn't want to work.

The Daily Mail didn't invent the name of the British Disease, IT WAS THE REST OF THE WORLD!!

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Nick - Germany seems to have created a pretty effective balance and compromise, which is why they have been so successful (relatively).

Anyway as you know I would want everyone to be an artisan but that can't happen but it can be part of it.

[Simon Hickie]

We were known in the 1970s as the sick man of Europe for a reason. A combination of incompetent management and industrial action on a regular basis ensured that. Add to that out of control inflation (courtesy of the Barber boom, oil prices, pent-up inflation courtesy of Labour's ill-conceived prices and incomes policy) and generally poor management of the economy laid the foundations for Thatcherism.

The Tories under Major as PM and Ken Clarke as Chancellor laid the foundations for apparent success of what followed. Unfortunately, Gordon Brown was a pretty incompetent Chancellor who got lucky. BEFORE the financial crisis hit, Brown presided over a 40% real terms increase in public spending and was already racking up large levels of borrowing during the 'good' years, meaning that there was nothing left in the coffers when the proverbial hit the fan in 2008. I saw this coming a mile off. Mind you, it helped having a line manager who was an economics adviser to Michael Portillo and who also worked in 10 Downing St. as a researcher at the time of the 1975 EEC referendum.

For those who remember the 1970s with rose tinted spectacles (helped by the music perhaps), also remember: the three day week, 50mph motorway speed limits and being limited to a maximum of 4 gallons of petrol (if you could get it), the potato shortage (20p a pound back then - if you could get them), the toilet roll shortage (we had either to use ghastly French cardboardy stuff, or Izal Extra Harsh if you could get it) and the sugar shortage (if you were lucky you could find somewhere selling small plastic bags of the stuff). Add in rampant inflation, the IMF bailout, wildcat strikes, secondary picketing etc. Of the 122 years for which data is available, six of the twenty years with the highest number of working days lost to strike action were in the 1970s. By contrast, of the 20 years with the fewest number of working days lost to industrial action, 16 were in the period 1995 to 2014.

[Lurcher300b]

Nick - Germany seems to have created a pretty effective balance and compromise, which is why they have been so successful (relatively).

Anyway as you know I would want everyone to be an artisan but that can't happen but it can be part of it.

Yes, German industry in part avoided the "British Disease" by giving workers both a say and a share in the success of the company. An anathema to the UK industry owners then and generally now.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Yes and caused by our class system. Us and them.

[Simon Hickie]

Out of interest, who do you think should control industries, and why?

A tricky one. When I started studying Economics back in 1969, the generally accepted view was that industries which were natural monopolies should be in public ownership. The somewhat facile example given was that it would be silly to have separate sets of gas and electricity pipes and wires going to a single property.

New Labour promoted the idea of the 'Third Way - not full-on private sector ownership and not full-on public ownership. Somebody else promoted the same idea back in the 1930s: his name was Joseph Goebbels. Furthermore, the chairman of The Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD), the barely legal successor to Hitler's National Socialist Party is quoted as saying:

"This [young Leftist] subculture possesses an anti-capitalist view of the world, and views the NPD as an instrument of Capitalism. Such a view of the NPD is fundamentally wrong, and disregards the fact that the Movement will eliminate Capitalism which is so contemptuous of humanity....

The NPD is a Movement of the People which will implement its programme of building a Third Power beyond Capitalism and Communism, thereby giving self-determination to the people.

At the centre of our struggle is mankind and Nature. Thanks to our life-giving view of the world, we stand against foreign rule and domination, against foreign penetration, exploitation and oppression. We stand for German freedom, for the freedom of peoples, for a New Social Order in both Germany and Europe.

During this phase, we must use capable intellectuals from all levels in society so as to build our ideology of a New Order beyond Capitalism and Communism.... The global threat to our nations by multi-national banks and companies working in harness with the ruling class is having a destructive effect on our peoples.

The outstanding achievements of the German social system are being more and more replaced by minimal standards."

It seems pretty Corbyn for the most part. And after all, Hitler was a socialist.

So to answer your question, broadly speaking my view is that private ownership is preferable where feasible. This is because of something both my wife (nurse for 36 years in the NHS) and I (university lecturer for 20 years, 12 years in the private sector) have experienced as 'public sector mentality'. Broadly speaking this means that behind all decision making processes is the unspoken thought that 'it doesn't matter if we screw up as we'll get bailed out. It happens in IT all the time in big public sector projects. In my experience, those who go bleating on about how public sector ownership is so much better for xyz are often armchair socialists who've never worked in the public sector and are clueless as to why generally speaking it doesn't always work terribly well.

[savvypaul]

Yes, German industry in part avoided the "British Disease" by giving workers both a say and a share in the success of the company. An anathema to the UK industry owners then and generally now.

The sound of nail being hit on head.

Progressive businesses work in partnership with all colleagues, including with their union representatives. They don't need to screw you with ever declining terms and conditions. They give you the tools and the authority to do a better job and to improve your own working environment. They run on respect rather than authority of rank. They share rewards with all colleagues.

The trade unions have embraced partnership. They want it to be the norm. The reason that the Tories seek to perpetuate the anti-union shite that is peddled in The Mail and the Sun is the unions funding for the labour party. Political cynicism before industrial progress.

Doc - if you ever find yourself again thinking that The Mail is right sometimes then, please, as they say up here...gi'yer heed a shake