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SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:21 pm
by savvypaul
A new review - a comparison of these 3 cables - has thrown up an issue that may not be obvious.
Beyond the number of cores, there is a subtle difference between SC and SSC / SSP; SC is actively shielded (the shield is connected and used as a ground), but SSC and SSP are passively shielded (the shield is not connected but acts as a Farady Cage - if we connected the shield it would defeat the objective of the extra cores, which is to separate ground from signal, and to achieve identical capacitance and resistance of signal and ground). Some designs of e.g. DAC appear to assume that anything they will be plugged into will be Class 1 (active ground / grounded chassis), and therefore they think they don't have to worry much about grounding. However, when used with Class II (e.g. NVA), if the DAC is designed only to see Class 1, a ground loop, hum, or noise may be created. I had this issue with a Chord DAC, but not my with RME (or the Schiit DAC I used for a while.
In such a scenario, SC will sound better, as the benefits of the extra cores in SSC and SSP are outweighed by the break in the ground.
If you are using a passive pre-amp, you can run a ground wire from a spare black phono socket to the earth terminal of a plug into a spare wall socket. Then, you can get the benefits of the extra cores SSC / SSP while minimising any grounding issues. Best of all, though, is to use a DAC that is designed to accommodate Class II, but you won't know until you try it in your system.
A similar but different scenario applies to turntables, where the active shielding is more important than having the extra cores.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:35 pm
by Latteman
Interesting- I remember Doc briefly discussing a similar topic and using sc for turntable to phono stage or using the shielding on ssc as the turntable ground.
I find I do not need a ground wire on my turntables to phono stages- actually creates a loop.
The turntable is actually grounded via the mains and the arm has minimal metal and are isolated
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:16 pm
by CN211276
savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:21 pm
A new review - a comparison of these 3 cables - has thrown up an issue that may not be obvious.
Beyond the number of cores, there is a subtle difference between SC and SSC / SSP; SC is actively shielded (the shield is connected and used as a ground), but SSC and SSP are passively shielded (the shield is not connected but acts as a Farady Cage - if we connected the shield it would defeat the objective of the extra cores, which is to separate ground from signal, and to achieve identical capacitance and resistance of signal and ground). Some designs of e.g. DAC appear to assume that anything they will be plugged into will be Class 1 (active ground / grounded chassis), and therefore they think they don't have to worry much about grounding. However, when used with Class II (e.g. NVA), if the DAC is designed only to see Class 1, a ground loop, hum, or noise may be created. I had this issue with a Chord DAC, but not my with RME (or the Schiit DAC I used for a while.
In such a scenario, SC will sound better, as the benefits of the extra cores in SSC and SSP are outweighed by the break in the ground.
If you are using a passive pre-amp, you can run a ground wire from a spare black phono socket to the earth terminal of a plug into a spare wall socket. Then, you can get the benefits of the extra cores SSC / SSP while minimising any grounding issues. Best of all, though, is to use a DAC that is designed to accommodate Class II, but you won't know until you try it in your system.
A similar but different scenario applies to turntables, where the active shielding is more important than having the extra cores.
Informative. I have a Chord DAC, the Qutest, and can speak for my own experience which also involves TIS.
Originally the DAC was connected to the NVA preamp via SSC with SSP connecting the preamp to the NVA mono blocks. I upgraded to TIS for the connection between the amps and moved the SSP cables to the DAC preamp connection. There was an improvement but it was not great. It was only when I upgraded to TIS for the DAC/preamp connection as well that I noticed a significant improvement in SQ. The SSP connection from the DAC must have been holding something back and the full benefits of TIS were only realised when the connection from DAC to mono blocks was complete.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:19 pm
by savvypaul
TIS is actively shielded.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:22 pm
by Bencat57
Thank you to Paul for supplying the reason I felt the way I did about trying the three cables and then writing the review . While I am still very happy with the cable I chose and will not be doing and further tests or sessions to get the other two cables working correctly it is mainly because I do not use a pre amp of any sort and do not want to but it is also because it sounds wonderful and yes I know if I change things it may well sound even more wonderful but I suspect the difference while good will not be by that much . Better still save my money and buy more music . I know at my age I should be immune but like I suspect many I am not when you have a view point that runs against the accepted it is hard to be really sure that you are hearing right and being honest both with yourself but also with others .
I respect Paul both for his acceptance that I am not being controversial and awkward and most certainly not saying his cables are poor but then also to find and explain what is the likely cause of the issue .
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:49 pm
by savvypaul
Bencat57 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:22 pm
Thank you to Paul for supplying the reason I felt the way I did about trying the three cables and then writing the review . While I am still very happy with the cable I chose and will not be doing and further tests or sessions to get the other two cables working correctly it is mainly because I do not use a pre amp of any sort but it is also because it sounds wonderful and yes i know if I change things it may well sound even more wonderful but I suspect the difference while god will be by that much . Better still save my money and buy more music . I know at my age I should be immune but like I suspect many I am not in when you have a view point that runs against the accepted it is hard to be really sure that you are hearing right and being honest both with yourself but also with others .
I respect Paul both for his acceptance that I am not being controversial and awkward and most certainly not saying his cables are poor but then also to find and explain what is the likely cause of the issue .
SC is the best for your needs, because the shielding is more important in your system than the additional cores. TIS would be the alternative; active shielding and additional (silver alloy) cores, but a BIG price difference.
I like getting to the bottom of these things (thanks to Tomasz, Richard's archive, and your ears) and I like it when that knowledge and insight can be used to achieve the most economical solution, whenever possible - that's the spirit of the forum, and NVA, I think. Thanks for a thoughtful and honest write-up.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:45 pm
by CN211276
This thread has got me thinking. The SSC which was once in the main system now connects the Chord Mojo 2 to the P20 in the second system. I will swap it for a cheap cable I have lying around see how it sounds and report back.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:11 am
by CN211276
CN211276 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:45 pm
This thread has got me thinking. The SSC which was once in the main system now connects the Chord Mojo 2 to the P20 in the second system. I will swap it for a cheap cable I have lying around see how it sounds and report back.
There is a noticeable extra degree of clarity with the cheap cable which I presume is actively shielded and consequently a better match for the Mojo 2 in a NVA set up. Think I will be pushing the button on SC which I am pretty sure will be superior. Just goes to show the importance of system matching.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:51 pm
by CN211276
The SC arrived in 24 hours.
Well packaged and better build quality than the ones I had connected in place of SSC. Only had time for a brief listen this morning and the sound seemed to be getting better and better with an initial harshness diminishing. The reviews suggest SC needs time to settle down and a warming up bedroom after a freezing night might not have helped. Will report back after more listening, but initial impressions are favourable.
Re: SC vs SSC / SSP - info & discussion
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:57 pm
by CN211276
The SC seems to be fully run in now and I have found myself listening to the second system a bit more, getting up later.
The improvement is subtle but very noticeable. There is a greater sense of openness, improved bass definition and neutrality, as if the system was adding something of its own character to the music before. Previously I had fiddled about with the numerous filter options on the Mojo 2 to get the best sound, putting this down to the speaker positioning and the room, finally settling on a slight treble boost. Now I have not found it necessary to activate any of the filters. I am sure SSC is a superior cable to SC, but it is horses for courses. I was happy with what I was hearing previously but, as is always the case, you are not aware that sound quality can be improved until it is. It was a similar case with the main system last year following the acquisition of Isopucks and oak stands.
A thanks to Bencat and Savvy for bringing the Chord SSC/SSP issue to my attention with an explanation. This has been staring me in the face for many years as I found out revisiting my reviews of TIS on pages 17 and 19 of the NVA review thread. The improvement brought about by connecting the Qutest to the preamp was dramatic and I compared it to upgrading a major component. In contrast replacing the same SSP with TIS for the preamp mono block connection produced a far smaller though worthwhile improvement in sound quality. What I put down to the synergy of using TIS all the way from DAC to mono blocks was in fact a DAC interconnector comparability issue.