HiFi Subjectivist ¦ Audio Forum ¦ NVA User Group

Apologies for filling this forum full of TT related subjects but compared to the other parts of my system I lack experience and knowledge.

First cartridge i bought in 2000 was a MM, can't remember what. I fell for (rightly or wrongly) the MC hype and that they were better and so every cart after that was a MC. Is that really the case? I quite like the idea of a MM which has the option of just replacing the stylus as long as it as musically satisfying as a MC.

What are the pro's and cons of these two ?

Thanks, Stu

Mm pros and cons.
Pros
Higher output
Replaceable stylus
Not really bothered about load
Potentially lower moving mass as no coils on end of cantilever, just a lighter magnet
More robust, no moving coil to output pin wires to break off

Cons
New stylus is practically the same price as complete cart these days
F/r potentially less extended as fixed coils are bigger with more inductance and interwinding capacitance
Need as little capacitance as possible in cables between arm and phono stage so expect to shell out more if you buy an arm cable.
You may get laughed at and called a know nothing idiot on forums if you dare to suggest an mm can be.......

better than an mc

Mc pros and cons

Pro
Sounds better apparently

Con
If its broken its broken, cant replace stylus unless its an ancient pioneer or at, and if you can find one
Requires quieter phono stage in terms of noise because of low output
May require some load tweaking to calm rising f/r response if it gets on your tits
Potentially higher moving mass as coils on end of cantilever
Generally more fragile
Generally cost more

Reality
If you like the sound it doesnt matter if its mm or mc. There are plenty of good mms and mcs, and plenty of bad mms and mcs.
There are also plenty of differing opinions on what is best, make up your own mind. Some swear by a shure m3d, some wont have anything but a koetsu

Thanks Ant, a very comprehensive reply.

Your list of pro's for MM is much bigger than the solitary Pro for MC ( which you qualify with apparently )

This on it's own is steering me towards MM as I like value for money and cost per play is a factor high in my list of priorities. Don't get me wrong, I like my Argo. I suppose finding a good sounding MM is as much a lottery as with MC.

They are based on my own personal blinkers.

Thing is that there are so so many variables in a setup that to me the question of if its mm or mc is one of the least important considerations.
I have an at33sa and a vm750sh, essentially the equivalent mm and mc in the audio technica range. Both similar hours on them. The 33 is more than twice the price of the 750. The 33 sounds better than the 750 on one deck, the opposite is true on another deck. My dv20 dynavector is better than either in certain circumstances, the docs old empire 1000gt mm is the same. Mm vs mc is a debate that isnt worth the effort in my opinion because its entirely subjective.
You just found out yourself that simlly moving a tt 3 feet to the left can have a dramatic effect , you could have pissed away a grand on a new cart and still had the same issue, hated the fruitbox and sold it. There are bigger fish to fry than wther the coils and magnets are arse backwards

Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:35 am They are based on my own personal blinkers.

Thing is that there are so so many variables in a setup that to me the question of if its mm or mc is one of the least important considerations.
I have an at33sa and a vm750sh, essentially the equivalent mm and mc in the audio technica range. Both similar hours on them. The 33 is more than twice the price of the 750. The 33 sounds better than the 750 on one deck, the opposite is true on another deck. My dv20 dynavector is better than either in certain circumstances, the docs old empire 1000gt mm is the same. Mm vs mc is a debate that isnt worth the effort in my opinion because its entirely subjective.
You just found out yourself that simlly moving a tt 3 feet to the left can have a dramatic effect , you could have pissed away a grand on a new cart and still had the same issue, hated the fruitbox and sold it. There are bigger fish to fry than wther the coils and magnets are arse backwards

Thanks again Cheque is in the post .

I can't afford to be trying out loads of different carts and at this present time don't have the mental capacity to go through endless swaps and the set up and hours of critical listening that entails.

I suppose with the Aro I am limited to what carts I can use on it due to the bolt holes not being slotted and the compliance that suits it. I have only had a couple of Dynavectors (10X4 and something else) and this Argo on the Aro. I will see if I can narrow the choices down to a few alternatives. I won't be buying a Linn cart though

Stu

I've just taken a punt on a Goldring 2400, thanks to Savvy pointing out they are available as end of line at a very reduced price. These are described as MM (at least on the Analogue Seduction website) though they are actually a moving iron design (according to the Goldring website). I've been pondering trying a MI for a long time as the design seems (to me) to be a 'best of both worlds' approach, but have previously been too lazy to bother. That said, now I've actually bought one I will give it a go in the next few weeks. My Rega Elicit-R has a pretty decent MM phono stage (which the MI design is happy with), so it will be interesting to see how it compares to my current AT33PTG/II into my NVA Phono 2.

Nothing but anecdotes ahead...

My first real cartridge was the ADC QLM36, actually it was an AT 3600 branded as Sanyo, but i dismissed as being no good (it isn't, i still have it). Anyway, this ADC saw me through a couple of decades of use, when it was replaced with a stereohedron Pickering XV15, which i thought was better, but not my much, then an AT OC9 (which i've recently repaired and now sometime use). On the MC side i've used the OC9, a Sumiko BPS, Denon DL103, nothing really high end, but the one cartridge i *like* the most is the ADC VLM. I sounds like the old QLM with a big ballsy sound without any signs of mistracking (there is one art of noise passage (how rapid!) that nothing else has ever not mistracked before). I used it to rip most of my vinyl collection due to this and the very low noise (NVA phono stage installed into the bottom of the TT and wired to the cartridge with a single unbroken piece of wire) that only a high output cartridge seems to provide. Beware though, IME MM & moving iron (or induced magnet) cartridges are more finicky with regards load (R & C) as the high frequency response is strongly dependent on this. Load on a MC cartridge seems to provide wide(ish)band damping.

Yep the ortofon vms range used to have a set of different pf and nf value capacitors you could buy to tweak their f/r. The Rload is not too much of an issue, i use between 39k and 47k on my cole lcr phono stage, capacitance is more the thing to watch.

There is a good thread on vinyl engine where someone altered the load and capacitance seen by quite a few carts and scoped the output of a phono stage (that had had its own f/r measured by using an inverse riaa network beforehand) to see what the f/r did with different values. Being able to accurately measure capacitance is the big thing, and a good lcr meter isnt cheap. With the specs of the cart and a trace of the output after the phono stage you can calculate the values to shoot for, if all the specs are available which they sometimes arent

Qed used to do a little box that had different r and c switches on it that was quite useful to hear the broad effect of changing r and c
I have one somewhere....

But fundamentally, the point stands that if you are happy with it thats all that matters. Getting there in the first place is the ticklish bit. I still cant stand the 103 despite it being so beloved by so many people. Maybe im wierd.....

You aren't weird, maybe i didn't get something quite right, but my DL103 (body removed) sounds quite unremarkable, not bad, but not great either. My Ortofon VMS20II sounds much better. Both stylii looked quite special under the microscope though, compared to most others.

This thread is stirring memories from forty years back. I used to have an Ortofon VMS20E MK2 which I modified with a cap to smoothe brightness. I also replaced the stylus with an Elete parabolic one.