LP12

[karatestu]

Stu,
I suspect that the cartridge you have is part of the problem, what is it? If it is a Moving Coil then a new stylus is going to be relatively expensive but a Moving Magnet type allows you to do the change. I suggest you look for a recommended, economy, cartridge as a trial. If that makes a difference then you can consider other options with the one you already have.

If a low cost cartridge doesn't change things the problem is elsewhere but, as you already have concerns about it, I would go for the cartridge first.

Cartridge is on my list of possible suspects. Another is my mounting of the Aro on the armboard. Changing VTA by using different mats doesn't alter things very much.

The cartridge is a Lyra Argo MC. Discontinued now but was £600 back in 2006 so not cheap shit. Dealer fitted it. Aro is not well known for its bass , being a uni pivot.

Stu

[Lindsayt]

The difficulty with comparing vinyl and digital sources is that the former has mechanically limited dynamic range and thus the mastering has to account for that.

The quality of reproduction of each format is good enough that whichever version has the better mastering will sound better.

With the wall to wall universal over use of Loudness Wars compression, almost all 21st century mainstream original music releases sound better on vinyl than CD / streamed.

Thanks for the last two posts.

The problem for me is I am now absolutely paranoid that something is not right with my system.

Well of course something's not right. You've got an LP12 with an Aro on a non mega dedicated stand, possibly too close to the speakers.

That's bass issues on bass issues on bass issues on bass issues.

Nevertheless, you should still have something that's better than all those cheapo plasticky turntables.

It makes sense to check for anything that's basically broken. Such as a worn out motor (unlikely) or cartridge not aligned properly (quite possible) or cartridge tip worn out or dirty (quite possible) etc etc. Once you've done that it's then a case of either enjoying what you've got for what it is - a good vinyl source but not the absolute best. Or look to try alternatives to the LP12.

[Vinyl-ant]

Wonky bass isnt usually a symptom of a past its prime cart. Worn carts will in my experience tend to get dull at the top end and harsh with it. Then you will start to hear mistracking, a sort of hash over the top of the music especially at the end of sides.
If you arent getting this then the cart is probably in good condition.

The argo has a line contact stylus on it so it will be pretty obvious when it starts to sound worn, the bottom end doesn't suffer particularly badly with wear but the top end does. Dealer fitted with an aro is irrelevant because the thing only needs bolting on, there are no slots in the headshell so you cant adjust for overhang or angle anyway.
If the cart has been stored somewhere where it isnt prone to swings in humidity and temperature, i.e not in an attic or in a celler or a garage, the suspension should be ok. It can harden somewhat over time and can also turn to gloop. Ive had some really dodgy old carts over the years but only ever had 2 carts have suspension problems, one a dl301, had a badly deteriorated bush that looked like chewing gum and a dynavector ultimo that had had the bush that had hardened badly and the cantilever barely moved.

Both were over 40 years old, and both would not track. If the lyra is tracking fine and is not adding a grainy awful hash over everything then it is probably still in good condition.

You could try tweaking the vta and the tracking weight. Rule of thumb is to have the vta set so that the arm is parallel to the record. Raising it a little at the back so that it is at a slight upward angle will alter the balance a little and tighten the bass a little. Addi g a few points of a gram to the tracking weigh can also tighten the bass a little.

With a fruitbox, adding some solid feet can also tighten the bass a little, i took the trampolinn base off mine and had some oak cones under it. Mine was also an arsehole when it came to siting it, getting abit mushy on racks or on thin shelves. Eventually I had it sat on a slate slab which i still have (the jbe sits on it these days) but something like a paving slab out of the yard will do. You could even prop it up on bricks if you wanted to go full on silly

I alway found the fruitbox to be very pernickety with pretty much everything.

Yours may be less so because of the lack of springs, but the box itself is still very resonant

[Geoff.R.G]

Despite what a dealer may tell you, fitting a cartridge isn't remotely difficult, it requires care and attention but anyone who can turn a screw should be able to do it. Getting everything lined up correctly is pretty simple too, assuming you have an alignment protractor. Your posts suggest that you are perfectly capable of doing the job properly. Being a uni pivot arm you will have to balance it in both pitch and roll but you shouldn't have a problem.

I can't recommend a cartridge because I don't know the arm, or indeed what is available, but I wouldn't spend a fortune, you are only trying to prove whether the cartridge is the problem.

I doubt your arm mounting is the problem, as long as it is secure there is no reason why it should accentuate low frequencies. As a thought, you have installed the arm with all the required packing (rubber washers etc.) haven't you? If you have left anything out when fitting the new arm board I would put that right. I imagine that you simply transferred everything so I doubt that is the problem.

Having read Ant's comments, I am inclined to agree that it probably isn't the cartridge. Ignore most of my comments, I haven't used vinyl regularly for some time. That and not actually thinking through the suspension thing.

A degree of bass feedback is possible, I would think that you know where to site a turntable by now. Sitting it on a paving slab is a good suggestion and shouldn't be difficult to achieve. Why not give that a try, I suspect you can lay hands on one easily enough.

[Geoff.R.G]

The difficulty with comparing vinyl and digital sources is that the former has mechanically limited dynamic range and thus the mastering has to account for that.

The quality of reproduction of each format is good enough that whichever version has the better mastering will sound better.

With the wall to wall universal over use of Loudness Wars compression, almost all 21st century mainstream original music releases sound better on vinyl than CD / streamed.

Stu said his CD's sounded anaemic, which is indeed a product of compression. I have a friend who loves his compressors and drives me round the bend. Speech sounds dreadful. If Stu's music is relatively recent that might explain some of the problem but too much bass and uncontrolled bass isn't normally something I associate with vinyl. Mine is all 20th century produced though,

[karatestu]

Thanks for all the advice.

Lindsay's suggestion of TT near the speakers on my Quadraspire wobbly Q4 reference might be the problem. First thing I am going to do is move the system to the other side of ths room. Might have to bodge up some speaker cables as I have one set f LS6 which is only 2.5 metres. The other LS6 set is 5 metres which is long enough.

After that I am going to match up the volume to the cd player which will be a substantial drop. Wish I had a proper volume control sometimes After that i will concentrate on the deck itself (arm and cartridge).

[karatestu]

I have moved the Quadraspire Q4 reference stand further away from the speakers and transferred all my gear onto it. It's four feet from the left speaker now and about nine feet from the right hand speaker. The stand is not in the corner of the room any more.

I think Lindsay was bang on the money. Thanks Lindsay. There is a big improvement playing The White Stripes Elephant. I haven't changed the volume setting at all but the whole thing sounds quieter. Nothing is rattling in the room now

Not only has the bass settled down but things are better across the whole frequency range. That roughness I complained about has gone and nothing is annoying me

A good result then. This is the experience i remember from 10 years ago but better. Better cos almost everything has changed. John's wonderful elastomer spring replacements, better subchassis, Avondale Audio Taps2 psu, NVA based phono and power amps, passive pre, NVA speaker cable and interconnects and better speakers.

Don't put your TT too near the speakers or in a corner of the room. My TT will probably end up on a wall shelf. I have an urge now to keep this LP12 and the Quadraspire Q4 reference. It's put the cat amongst the pigeons this rediscovered love of vinyl. The PL-71 is going to be going to Ant's eventually (I know I keep saying that, Sorry Ant) and if I like that as well then I'm gonna keep both

More to come .

[karatestu]

Forgot to say that I really appreciate everyone's effort in trying to help me. There has been a number of things suggested that i will be looking into further.

BIG THANKS

[Lindsayt]

The PL-71 is going to be going to Ant's eventually (I know I keep saying that, Sorry Ant) and if I like that as well then I'm gonna keep both

More to come .

Have you got a Pioneer PL-71?
What sort of condition is it in? If it's working OK do your own personal bake-off. 71 vs 12.

If it's not working OK, get it fixed if that's economically viable.

Try an original Sound Organisation table (or equivalent). I can pop round with one, if you want, for a little turntable table bake-off.

[karatestu]

The PL-71 is going to be going to Ant's eventually (I know I keep saying that, Sorry Ant) and if I like that as well then I'm gonna keep both

More to come .

Have you got a Pioneer PL-71?
What sort of condition is it in? If it's working OK do your own personal bake-off. 71 vs 12.

If it's not working OK, get it fixed if that's economically viable.

Try an original Sound Organisation table (or equivalent). I can pop round with one, if you want, for a little turntable table bake-off.

Yeah, I've got a Pioneer PL-71 Here it is sat on my Quadraspire Q4 reference some time last year. I've been using the mat off it on the LP12.



Speed is all over the place so it probably needs micro switches and electro caps changing. Arm bearings also need looking at. There's no cartridge on it either.

TT bake off - all in good time my friend