Oh My God, What Have I done!?

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Geoff.R.G
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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

CN211276 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:10 pm According to the Linn mythology Ivor discovered that a TT not in the same room as the speakers sounded better than one in the same room because of acoustic feedback. Hence his SS design. :lol: A&R and Thoerns already had SS TTS before he nicked the one from Ariston. :lol:
I will believe that a turntable in another room can sound better than one in the same room as the speakers. However, sitting a turntable on a suspension system doesn’t prevent acoustic feedback. If it did we would all have our microphones on AVMs. As it is all a microphone AVM does is to prevent mechanical from noise being picked up. The springs on my 1960s BSR turntable did that!

One has to wonder at the listening level Ivor was using for feedback to be a problem. Almost certainly higher than my neighbours would accept.
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Lindsayt (Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:11 am)

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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by Vinyl-ant »

Well isolation alone wasnt the entire point of the design, it was edgar villchur of acoustic research who came up with the 3 point suspended subchassis arrangement as a way if isolating the arm and bearing from the motor to remove rumble. External Isolation was initially a secondary part of the design. If you look at the original acoustic research deck its subchassis a much heftier affair than the thorens, linn ect that came later. The leak truspeed is another early example of the breed that i have worked on, that has the bearing and subchassis as a single machined aluminium casting, machined pretty precisely with much webbing to make it very stiff. The chassis on both those two are significantly heavier than the pressed steel ones in early and mid model td's and lp12s, and the platters are notably lighter than lp12s and thorens. Although interestingly the periphery of both are thicker and heavier than lp12s and thorens td decks meaning that the moi is high for speed stability.
Only other place i have seen this type of platter construction is the xerxes.
Technically the xerxes is a 3 point suspended subchassis deck but it is suspended on rubber isolators instead of springs, but the principal is the same. With the 'classic' acoustic research approach adopted by linn, thorens, systemdek et al, the mass distribution is an issue as the heavy bit is at the top, meaning its always trying to fall over. Other decks following the 3 point principle such as the oracle, the gyro, and my beloved and sadly missed yamaha pf800, and the sme models what have towers and hang off rubber o rings put the mass at or just below the cog of the assembly which makes those designs more stable.
Linn with the recent keel subchassis and other changes have altered the weight distribution. There have now been 50 years of iterative development of the linn, a 1972 lp12 and a 2022 lp12 probably sound completely different. I wouldn't know because the most recent version i have heard is that 1987 valhalla lp12 and that was 20 years ago.
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Geoff.R.G (Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:35 am) • CycleCoach (Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:29 am) • CN211276 (Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:22 pm)
Analogue: oracle delphi sme 309, jbe series 3 cx unipivot dv20x2l, roksan xerxes tabriz vm750, jvc ql-y5f rigb at440, jvc ql-y3f vm750, lenco 75, technics sl150

Phono stages: cole lcr, benedict audio hothead

Digital: cyrus cd7, wiim mini x2, topping e30, jds labs el dac 2+

Amplification: nelson pass b1, nelson pass f5

Speakers: 15" fane aperiodic wardrobes

Cans: myryad z40, hifiman sundara + deva, fostex t50rp, sennheiser momentum on ear +over ear, b&w p5 and p7

Geoff.R.G
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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Vinyl-ant wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:13 am Well isolation alone wasnt the entire point of the design, it was edgar villchur of acoustic research who came up with the 3 point suspended subchassis arrangement as a way if isolating the arm and bearing from the motor to remove rumble. External Isolation was initially a secondary part of the design. If you look at the original acoustic research deck its subchassis a much heftier affair than the thorens, linn ect that came later. The leak truspeed is another early example of the breed that i have worked on, that has the bearing and subchassis as a single machined aluminium casting, machined pretty precisely with much webbing to make it very stiff. The chassis on both those two are significantly heavier than the pressed steel ones in early and mid model td's and lp12s, and the platters are notably lighter than lp12s and thorens. Although interestingly the periphery of both are thicker and heavier than lp12s and thorens td decks meaning that the moi is high for speed stability.
Only other place i have seen this type of platter construction is the xerxes.
Technically the xerxes is a 3 point suspended subchassis deck but it is suspended on rubber isolators instead of springs, but the principal is the same. With the 'classic' acoustic research approach adopted by linn, thorens, systemdek et al, the mass distribution is an issue as the heavy bit is at the top, meaning its always trying to fall over. Other decks following the 3 point principle such as the oracle, the gyro, and my beloved and sadly missed yamaha pf800, and the sme models what have towers and hang off rubber o rings put the mass at or just below the cog of the assembly which makes those designs more stable.
Linn with the recent keel subchassis and other changes have altered the weight distribution. There have now been 50 years of iterative development of the linn, a 1972 lp12 and a 2022 lp12 probably sound completely different. I wouldn't know because the most recent version i have heard is that 1987 valhalla lp12 and that was 20 years ago.
As I said previously, a suspended turntable isn’t isolated from acoustic feedback, only from mechanical noise transmission. Obviously the motor is a source of mechanical noise. It could be argued that the motor should be suspended not the turntable.

From an engineering perspective, the fact that the Linn needs regular tuning, and the Thorens models don’t, suggests a less than ideal implementation of the principle. The SME turntables with suspension towers look to be well engineered, as one would have every right to expect at the price.

I suspect there is a fair amount of mythology around the Linn, created to hide the truth?
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CN211276 (Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:33 am)

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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by Vinyl-ant »

I think the mythology if you want to call it that is more of a product of marketing and perception, from when linn had its huge print media stranglehold in the late 70s to early 90s. So when militant rags and journalists said something was better than the lp12 it was argued that the lp12 that was beaten was not set up properly. The rest becomes lost in translation over 30 odd years, chinese whispers and internet warpings.
Truth never had anything to do with it, it was always about the bottom line
The same can be said about alot of things
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CN211276 (Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:20 pm) • Lindsayt (Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:05 pm)
Analogue: oracle delphi sme 309, jbe series 3 cx unipivot dv20x2l, roksan xerxes tabriz vm750, jvc ql-y5f rigb at440, jvc ql-y3f vm750, lenco 75, technics sl150

Phono stages: cole lcr, benedict audio hothead

Digital: cyrus cd7, wiim mini x2, topping e30, jds labs el dac 2+

Amplification: nelson pass b1, nelson pass f5

Speakers: 15" fane aperiodic wardrobes

Cans: myryad z40, hifiman sundara + deva, fostex t50rp, sennheiser momentum on ear +over ear, b&w p5 and p7

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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by CN211276 »

Vinyl-ant wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:30 pm I think the mythology if you want to call it that is more of a product of marketing and perception, from when linn had its huge print media stranglehold in the late 70s to early 90s. So when militant rags and journalists said something was better than the lp12 it was argued that the lp12 that was beaten was not set up properly. The rest becomes lost in translation over 30 odd years, chinese whispers and internet warpings.
Truth never had anything to do with it, it was always about the bottom line
The same can be said about alot of things
I was convinced the magazine's were on Linn's pay roll and in 1980 I wrote a letter to Popular HiFi to this effect. I was amazed that it was published but looking back I am of the opinion that it was permitted by Linn to enable Ivor to write a two page rebuttal in which I was the devil incarnate and Linn were a bunch of enterprising angels - dedecated enthusiasts developing products for their own enjoyment which people happened to like. He emphasised that the perception of them as shrewd marketing people was totally incorrect. :lol: My letter and Ivor's response are in the HFS archive somewhere.

What really got to me was the insistence that the LP12 (£340 at the time) with Rega arm, £10 cartridge. NAD 3020 (£89) and Wharfdale Shelton's (£65) would out perform any other TT with the best and most expensive amplification and speakers available. :lol: I put this to the test at a dealer some years later, the budget speakers being Boston. The comparison was with a Rega Planar 3 and the LP12 was in no way superior. The salesman was not pleased and made derogetry comments about my choice of music. Needless to say I bought the Rega at a fraction of the price of the LP12. Whether the LP12 was set up properly for the demo I don't know. But that is imaterial.

Forty years on and with over twenty with the Internet I am amazed that the mythology lives on and so many are taken in by this unscrupulous company whose success was built upon such a poorly engineered product half a century ago.
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Lindsayt (Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:06 pm)
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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by TheRealAleman »

karatestu wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:38 am Funny how this thread about the purchase of some NVA gear has turned into a discussion about turntables and suspensions
Yeah, even so, thank you everyone for the input, positive or negative. When I bought it back in 87, I was young and naïve, some would say gullible. I guess it must have been a Wednesday produced model, as it has served me well since then, with somewhat infrequent servicing.

It is also fair to say that if I was looking at getting into the vinyl game from scratch today, the LP12 would probably not be at the top of my "must have" list. The availability of alternative, unbiased(??). knowledgeable views on equipment is much more freely available now than it was in 1987. Would I be prepared to drop £6K on a fully referbished TD124 MK II (Riverside Audio), plus new plinth, arm and cartridge?? I certainly wouldn't spend £10K on a Selekt Spec LP12!

It's build week for my NVA Kit :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

TheRealAleman wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:05 am
karatestu wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:38 am Funny how this thread about the purchase of some NVA gear has turned into a discussion about turntables and suspensions
Yeah, even so, thank you everyone for the input, positive or negative. When I bought it back in 87, I was young and naïve, some would say gullible. I guess it must have been a Wednesday produced model, as it has served me well since then, with somewhat infrequent servicing.

It is also fair to say that if I was looking at getting into the vinyl game from scratch today, the LP12 would probably not be at the top of my "must have" list. The availability of alternative, unbiased(??). knowledgeable views on equipment is much more freely available now than it was in 1987. Would I be prepared to drop £6K on a fully referbished TD124 MK II (Riverside Audio), plus new plinth, arm and cartridge?? I certainly wouldn't spend £10K on a Selekt Spec LP12!

It's build week for my NVA Kit :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
I don't think I would buy the same turntable if I were buying now either, not that I would have a clue what to buy instead.

Enjoy your new amplification when it arrives.

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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by TheRealAleman »

Geoff.R.G wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:30 am Enjoy your new amplification when it arrives.
Well, yesterday three boxes arrived on my doorstep :dance: Unfortunately It should have been four, but one is still in the sorting location in Manchester, hopefully arriving today and not lost :o :cry:

So I have three black "Magic" boxes and no cables ... At least I can plug the Phono 1, and the S300 (weighs a ton!) in to the mains. Removing the (Cambridge Audio interconnects from the CD Player - not used in a long while - and plugging that into the P1 at least means I can enjoy an upgraded phono stage.

Very, very, very, early first impressions. Ho, Hum, what's all the fuss about? certainly nothing extra special about Gary's Still got the Blues, and the Texas Blues was horribly bright and a harsh top end :angry-steamingears: ... OK it's early days. A couple of hours later I had time to listen again, and decided to give it something "easy" Voyage, by ABBA. Soundstage much wider than normal, even from my off centre listening position. instruments locked in position. Benny's Piano sounded like a piano. You could hear Annifrid's vocal technique quite clearly on "I still have faith in you" even down to the slight differences in pronunciation that a non native English speaker has, and Frida's English is very good indeed. This is more like it :D

Next up Simply reds Picture Book, with it's reference track "Sad Old Red" :o :o :o Wow! Great soundstage, super bass control transients controlled, can actually tell the difference between the partially open hi hat and lightly brushed cymbals. Micks vocals, sublime.

Throwing Shakespeare's sisters "Hormonally Yours" at it this early was probably a little bit of an unfair test. Both girls vocals very sharp in the upper registers, but sound stage was good, easy to separate out the instruments, and follow say the bass lines. ... One to revisit once things have settled down.

Moonlight shadows by The Shadows, usual polished performance by the boys, Hanks 'strat handled effortlessly, really good toe tapping music.

Can't wait to get the cables and have it all run in properly, at the moment with the current interconnects, the Azur 640A (Mk I), and the QED Silver plated stranded speaker cable I think something is "choking" the sound. My plan was to introduce the cables first, then the P1, the P50, and finally the S300 into the mix, so I could see what it actually was that wasn't letting the music "sing". DHL had other ideas obvs :angry-fire:
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CycleCoach (Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:30 pm) • Grumpytim (Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:31 pm) • CN211276 (Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:47 pm)

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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by TheRealAleman »

Cables arrived, everything plugged in...




... Hotel California ... Wow, just wow 😭😭😭😭



Apparently it gets better 😱😱😱😱😱
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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Hotel California? How Linn LP12 is that?
Dire Straits next?
Followed by Suzanne Vega?
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