Speakers

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Classicrock
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Re: Speakers

Unread post by Classicrock »

Cubes need to be close to the wall (solid). Moving them to within 6 inches and slight toe in really improved the sound vastly.
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Lindsayt
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Re: Speakers

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Coming back to the opening post of this thread:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:52 pm I hate British designed and made speakers they are crap, bad value, and largely music killers. But I would say that wouldn't I !!! Most EU are just as bad though some almost make it, with the Italians leading this group.

There is only USA making proper speakers now, and most of those have now gone to the speaker company heaven (or hell), AR, Allison etc etc and of course the big pro companies are not what they were like JBL and Altec. But there is still one musically satisfying company that we get very little of in the UK -

Klipsch...
In reference to British speakers, Richard said this:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:42 pm You are happy so why does my opinion hurt you, I stand by what I say. There are NONE that I have heard I could be happy with. They are not made to produce good speakers (music) they are made to make money, as much as they can get away with, for them and their retailers, the whole industry involving British Hi-fi speaker companies are stuck in a design rut mostly WAF and will not take chances to progress. Luckily some small companies are trying, but I ask will they be ALLOWED to show what they are doing. IMO one of the worst rip-off companies is PMC, not quite as bad as Kef and B&W. If you are happy then be happy, but keep an open mind. If you want to open your mind I am here to help that process.

We only know what we know, and I am willing to put my knowledge and ability up against them squarely and fairly, one on one or more in any bake-off or visit or loan or purchase with return if unhappy.
I think that Richard's points can be underlined by looking at case studies.
For example, on another forum there's a thread where someone from Denmark has auditioned the following speakers:
Dali Opticon 6 Mk II
Dali Rubicon 6
Sonus Faber Sonetto V
Sonus Faber Lumina III
Dynaudio Emit 50
Dynaudio Evoke 50
Focal Aria 926
AudioVector QR5
Acoustic Energy AE520
Triangle Borea BR08
Gato Audio FM-30

He came to the conclusion that he likes the Gato Audios best and has bought a pair.

This means that he has been exposed to:
Dali Opticon 6 Mk II - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £1500. 2 x 6.5" mid-woofers.
Dali Rubicon 6 - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £3300. 2 x 6.5" mid-woofers.
Sonus Faber Sonetto V - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £4300. 2 x 7" woofers.
Sonus Faber Lumina III - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £2000. 2 x 5.5" woofers.
Dynaudio Emit 50 - very low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £1750. 2 x 7" woofers.
Dynaudio Evoke 50 - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £4200. 2 x 7" woofers.
Focal Aria 926 - low efficiency 8 ohm dropping to 2.9 ohms slimline ported speakers retailing for £2400. 2 x 6.5" mid-woofers.
AudioVector QR5 - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £2900. 2 x 6" mid-woofers.
Acoustic Energy AE520 - low efficiency 6 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £3650. 3 x 5" woofers.
Triangle Borea BR08 - low efficiency 8 ohm dropping to 3 ohms slimline ported speakers retailing for £1000. 2 x 6.5" mid-woofers.
Gato Audio FM-30 - low efficiency 4 ohm slimline ported speakers retailing for £4000. 2 x 5.5" woofers.

There's a pattern going on here.

Richard's post from 3 years ago is apt. Although I think that he was being somewhat hyperbolic / cantankerous with his "sold by slurping crooks" statement.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 8:37 pm Well as DIY-er in the 60s and early 70's to my own companies I have tried to reflect those values. I fought it through the BBC bollocks first, then the Linn / Naim bollocks through the flat earth, then through the valve revival, then through the home cinema, to now the stupidly over complicated over priced blinged crap we have now that is called hi-fi - sold by slurping crooks.

Throughout that time I have mostly been a lone voice, called mad, stupid, rude, and here I am coming up to my 71st at the end of the month and as a cancer survivor, I wouldn't say going strong, but still trying, and NOW I have people to talk about it with who don't insult me - better late than never.

I have even tried to progress the principles of the early days, not by more, but by less, as now we have ways and components that help us make it simpler and still work, so in my opinion progress and better. The world is now driven and controlled by more - more people - more money - more turnover - more profit - more food - more jobs - more politicians - more cars - more pollution - more more more - to the extent that more is more important than quality or satisfaction.

IMO opinion it is time for less, the only more we need is self control and the time and ability to appreciate how satisfying a small or simple thing can be.
Source: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=49137&hilit=fane&start=50

As we head into 2022 there's no sign of the mainstream speaker world improving in the UK or the EU.
This is disappointing on behalf of the buyers stuck in the mainstream. And pleasantly uplifting for those of us that have waded out of this river of shit and gone onto greener pastures for our speakers.
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CN211276 (Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:59 pm) • savvypaul (Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:11 pm)

Geoff.R.G
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Re: Speakers

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

With the increasing numbers of class D amplifiers around, and the associated ready availability of lots of power, there is little incentive to produce high efficiency speakers. With valve amps efficient speakers were/are pretty much essential, early transistor amps were designed to use the same speakers, the Leak Stereo 30 for example was 15 Watts per channel. Then came the Stereo 70 with 35 Watts, still in the 60s, now it is easy to find 100+ watt class B and AB amplifiers. Class D amps don't seem to be restrained and 300+ watts is common. Drive an efficient speaker with a decent 50 Watt amplifier and it will happily coast all day coping with transients as if the weren't there (a bit like a powerful car encountering a hill, what hill?).

While there are very powerful amplifiers to be found why would speaker manufacturers make efficient speakers? I have a pair of 1970's vintage Leak sandwich speakers, rated at 35W, that I have driven with amplifiers rated well above this but long before getting anywhere near the amplifiers limits the sound, even in a large room, is deafening. Personally, I prefer it that way rather than having to drive the speakers hard but, as most people let dealers "guide" them they will never find out what effortless listening is all about.

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Lindsayt
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Re: Speakers

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Little incentive to produce high efficiency speakers?

Coming back to the case study - where the speakers cost 4000 euros / pounds?

Little incentive?

What about the sound quality?

Surely sound quality should be a major consideration when buying speakers for 4000 euros?

Let's arrange a bake-off. Gato FM30's 4 ohm low efficiency slimline ported speakers vs some high efficiency speakers.
Such as Fane 12 250TC's in a braced sealed box
Or Klipsch Heresy's
Or 4 way semi ported semi open baffle speakers featuring high efficiency drivers that retailed at £3500ish
Or Altec Model 19's or 604's
Or Lowthers on an open baffle, suplemented by a woofer and a tweeter
etc etc etc

If I were a speaker manufacturer or dealer and I sold speakers for £4000 that sounded significantly worse than something that cost under £500 and took someone a day to put together in their garden shed, I'd feel extremely embarassed.

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Re: Speakers

Unread post by savvypaul »

Lindsayt wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:01 pm If I were a speaker manufacturer or dealer and I sold speakers for £4000 that sounded significantly worse than something that cost under £500 and took someone a day to put together in their garden shed, I'd feel extremely embarassed.
An experienced DIYer, counting only the cost of parts, and having no commercially driven requirements should usually be capable of making a speaker for £500 that easily equals and most often betters £4k retail speakers.

The average £4k speaker that is sold through a dealer will contain £400 to £500 of parts. It will be potentially compromised by requirements such as WAF and 'fashion'. Those are the commercial realities for manufacturers that pay for premises, staff, utilities, marketing, dealer commissions, service and warranties, R&D etc.

There's room for both, and others in-between (e.g. NVA), but I agree that the speakers that are available through dealers are mostly very disappointing. You couldn't pay me to have most of them.
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Lindsayt (Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:49 pm)
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Lindsayt
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Re: Speakers

Unread post by Lindsayt »

The SB Acoustics drivers in a pair of Gato FM30's will cost around about £500.
A pair of Fane 12 250TC's costs £150. Stick the Fanes in braced sealed 80 litre boxes and you have a good sounding pair of speakers.

You don't even need to be an experienced DIY'er. Nor even a DIY'er at all. All you need to be is well informed.

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Re: Speakers

Unread post by savvypaul »

Lindsayt wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:18 pm The SB Acoustics drivers in a pair of Gato FM30's will cost around about £500.
A pair of Fane 12 250TC's costs £150. Stick the Fanes in braced sealed 80 litre boxes and you have a good sounding pair of speakers.

You don't even need to be an experienced DIY'er. Nor even a DIY'er at all. All you need to be is well informed.
Yes, knowledge / skill / effort are variables.

On the other hand, Gato will likely be buying drivers in hundreds. The price per driver, to them, will be a lot lower than you price up as an individual buying just a few drivers.
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valvesRus
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Re: Speakers

Unread post by valvesRus »

Lindsayt wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:18 pm The SB Acoustics drivers in a pair of Gato FM30's will cost around about £500.
A pair of Fane 12 250TC's costs £150. Stick the Fanes in braced sealed 80 litre boxes and you have a good sounding pair of speakers.

You don't even need to be an experienced DIY'er. Nor even a DIY'er at all. All you need to be is well informed.
Easy peezy when someone else has done all the hard work calculating the dimensions and taken the risk to actually construct a pair.

If you read up on the path Steve Cresswell took in making these it was not all plain sailing.

You (Lindsay) may be surprised how much effort it will take to get your own speakers constructed and sounding as you want them too. But I genuinely wish you good fortune.

I've seen speakers constructed by inexperienced DIYers and some are horrendous.

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Re: Speakers

Unread post by Vinyl-ant »

Yep, ive built some awful speakers myself, put the time and money into them and found that they were shite.
Ive been relatively successful with different metronome speakers, i did some using fostex fe127s, some with mark audio drivers, one on The front and one on the side, and a pair using faital drivers that needed a lot of time putting into the crossover to get them right.
Those took months and months to get right.
The big fanes i took to owston took little time to build, and a fair bit if time to tweak. They had to be braced more after they had been built and had the interior damping fiddled with quite abit.
The aperiodic vent they now have took a good few weeks of listening and tweaking to get right
If you ask paul, he would confirm that when he heard them when i hadnt long since built them that they were thin and shrieky. But they had something.
So they took bugger all time to actually build, but 12 months plus to get them right.
The main thing is to not get blinkered and stuck on a particular concept or idea. Being open to trying something that you dont like as a concept is a good way to be, because you can try things that you cant with 4 grand bought speakers
You build them they can be pig ugly and have holes all over them, build a proper pair once youre happy with what you have.
I built mine specifically for my f5, i i use the a20 which has a ton more gain they will have the windows out.
They were plenty loud enough with the 1.5w 45 amp up them at owston
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Re: Speakers

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valvesRus wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:59 pm

I've seen speakers constructed by inexperienced DIYers and some are horrendous.
I started building speakers in the mid 90s, and found its easy to build speakers that do some things well, or even do some thing's exceptionally well, but building a speaker that does most things very well in every department is a bit of a challenge..
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