ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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Latteman
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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Latteman »

Since owning and using Nva amps & cables (plus actual ‘doc modded drivers’) I spend much more time discovering new to me music- to me my amplification components are the bedrock I build source around- in the last several years my music taste is more diverse and numerous- many thanks 🙏
I remember days reading hifi mags (never What hifi for some reason 😂) and I remember the start of the measurement phase and that bored me- I always skipped to the conclusion & price 🤪
Facebook groups are where I seem to spend more time than forums- this is the only forum I use and respect members advice/ experience.
Facebook has dicks too but there are some good chaps there who like me may have drifted there.
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karatestu (Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:16 am)
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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Neonknight wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:58 am
I see usefulness of knowing slew rate, voltage output, signal to noise ratio, damping factor. power output into 4 and 8 ohm loads (although these can be fudged a bit to create that "double down" persona). Does these numbers create a check box of good versus bad? Not really. But it also helps to understand what choices the designer made for the amp.
The signal to noise ratio depends on the power being output for any particular amplifier, as well as the speaker impedance (to a lesser extent). If it's quoted as a single figure, it's usually given as the measurement in the most advantageous set of circumstances - 8 ohm load, just below clipping power levels.

The SNR for my most powerful amp is useless. Because if I used that power into my speakers I'd blow them. I have no idea what the SNR's are for this amplifier at my normal listening volumes.

My favourite amplifiers - with my favourite speakers - have unknown slew rates (possibly not that good), terrible damping factor, terrible power output into 8 and 4 ohms.

Just looking at my amplifiers gives me a enough information about the choices made by the designers. I don't need any technical specifications to know that one amplifier is a SET and the other is a high powered solid state.

And then it's down to listening tests to decide which amplifier I like the most with any particular pair of speakers.
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savvypaul (Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:00 am)

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by CN211276 »

Lindsayt wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 am
I've not come across any measurements that I'd trust that indicate the amount of dynamic compression that components have.
Nor that indicate focus and clarity.
Good point. These areas of performance are very important to me.
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Lindsayt (Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:52 am)
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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Neonknight »

CN211276 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:46 pm
Lindsayt wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 am
I've not come across any measurements that I'd trust that indicate the amount of dynamic compression that components have.
Nor that indicate focus and clarity.
Good point. These areas of performance are very important to me.
Speaking of SET, I spent a good 15 years using DHT amps. When we moved into the new house I wanted a different pair of speakers. I chose a pair of JBL 4365, and the speaker efficiency and impedance curve showed they should be compatible with my Electraprint 300B based amplifier. I got the combination together and it was wretched. You could say the spec's misled me in terms of efficiency and impedance, but I also suspect if you looked closer at crossover configuration and take into account that efficiency was borderline acceptable you would have predicted this outcome. Nevertheless I had just spent $8K on a 1 year old pair of speakers that was incompatible with the current electronics, and I had to choose between speaker and amplification. I chose speakers. I ended up with solid state amps that are heavily biased into Class A and have an even and balanced presentation. Ultimately the listening sessions are the final arbiter, after all we listen to our stereo, but understanding the interrelationships of what a component measures and how it performs with the rest of the system provides a lot of information. The other point is that what a component does on a scope and given varying signals is going to be more informative than a static measurement number we are given on an owners manual, but getting that information is pretty tough. That is why certain mags like Stereophile used to have the auxiliary chapters about how Atkinson measured the component and how it met its relative specs and what anomalies showed up. I found that to be pretty informative as it gave you context to what is published, and it was interesting to see the correlation of what was experienced in the listening sessions. And that is the key, how the two interrelate between listening and what is shown on the bench. Everyone enjoys this hobby differently, and approaches it in a manner that makes sense to them, and in the end there is more than one way to audio nirvana. From my perspective this is a life long journey, and now every decision we makes works out well. It is a matter of what we experience and how it brings meaning to the music we enjoy.

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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I guess what I am trying to say, and doing a poor job of it, is that it does not have to be either/or when it comes to specs and listening. There is value to both approaches, and using them with common sense is a realistic approach on how to consider audio purchases. I have never bought purely on specs, but have used them as a filter in a way to make a short list of components that interest me. But I use other filters that make sense to me also. Finally I listen to it, but its impossible to get auditions on most pieces so my auditions are really purchases I then evaluate. I will say I have made more purchases based on other owners posts/experiences than I have any other way. The only good thing is I generally can resell for no or little loss. As far as NVA? I would love to hear some, but in the West Coast of the US there is no way of hearing them, and I know of no owners in my area that I could travel to, and you don't see them on our used market. So for me it sits only as a wish, and perhaps a future plan.

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Latteman »

There was a phono 1 on sale on eBay USA recently- amps do crop up occasionally- what do u currently use 👍🏼
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Diy Thorens Td321; ARB uni pivot; Ortofon Vivo Blue Mc; MCA10 / Nva Phono 1.
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Speakers- Diy ‘Isobaric Cubes’; Ls6 bi-wired
Dc blocker to mini BMU

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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Latteman wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pm There was a phono 1 on sale on eBay USA recently- amps do crop up occasionally- what do u currently use 👍🏼
My current phono stage is an Esoteric E-03. I was fortunate to locate it on the used market. One thing I find handy is I have two inputs so I can run the SOTA and the Well Tempered to it and select which one I want to use without a bunch of unplugging and plugging.
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Latteman (Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:47 pm)

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Lindsayt »

I've just thought of 2 technical specifications that are of some use.

Cartridge compliance and tonearm mass. With it being a somewhat useful general guideline to avoid matching low compliance cartridges with low mass arms and high compliance cartridges with high mass arms.

The funny thing is, it's a long time since I've seen anyone on a hi-fi forum mention these 2 specifications.
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savvypaul (Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:49 am)

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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The doc used to argue with a measurist on a forum. The bloke obviously knew chapter and verse about speaker measurements .

But you couldn't debate with him ,he answered as he had been taught and could only see the theory .

So he would wax lyrical about standing waves or bass reflex ,but he couldn't tell you what they sounded like. Ask him a question and out would trot the theory .

As Karl Marx pointed out, the point of theory is to change the world
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Lindsayt (Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:29 pm) • savvypaul (Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:05 am)

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Neonknight »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:31 pm The doc used to argue with a measurist on a forum. The bloke obviously knew chapter and verse about speaker measurements .

But you couldn't debate with him ,he answered as he had been taught and could only see the theory .

So he would wax lyrical about standing waves or bass reflex ,but he couldn't tell you what they sounded like. Ask him a question and out would trot the theory .

As Karl Marx pointed out, the point of theory is to change the world
This sort of segues into the quote by Daniel R. von Recklinghausen of KLH Audio.

"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

Listening is always important. However measurements matter, otherwise how can they understand what they have built and how to replicate it. Does it matter to hobbyists in the end? Not necessarily I suppose. But I could see where others would want to try to understand a correlation, the how and why of it all. Although to really understand the measurements I suspect you have to have an education in electrical theory. Without that you really do not understand the interrelationships and what is occurring in the circuit. So for someone like me, you could say the measurements don't matter because I don't know how they are achieved or how the various elements of the circuit are interrelated.
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Lindsayt (Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:30 pm)

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