ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

All general audio posts go here.
User avatar
savvypaul
Posts: 8635
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm
Location: Durham
Has thanked: 1657 times
Been thanked: 2978 times
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by savvypaul »

I get the occasional email from someone who wants to know the measurements. The conversation usually goes something like this....

Can you give me all the measurements for the S80?

w250mm x h65mm x d205mm

No, I mean the measured specs.

Power Output - 35w
Power Supply - 80va


No, I mean the measured performance.

We measure that with our ears.

Well, can you give me those measurements?

No, you listen to it, then you tell us the measurements.

I can't do that.

Why not?

How would I be able to tell the measurements just from listening to it?

Well, why do you want the measurements?

So, I will know what it sounds like before I listen to it.
.
.
.
NVA is not for you.

Where we go out of our way to help is regarding electrical compatibility. We'll track down the impedance curve for your speakers and look beyond the basic specs. For example, a chap with a pair of Scansonic speakers got in touch. Nominal impedance 6 ohms - borderline for NVA, on paper - but when we looked at the curve, 6ohms turned out to be the lowest impedance point, and that was at a benign point in the frequency range. A very nice potential match. Other manufactures, though, quote a nominal impedance that is much greater than the lowest impedance points across the range. The devil is in the detail. Impedance still doesn't tell you nearly everything about how they will sound - but it is useful for assessing electrical compatibility. Lindasy's cartridge / arm matching example is the same with regard to mechanical compatibility.
These users thanked the author savvypaul for the post (total 2):
CycleCoach (Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:09 pm) • Lindsayt (Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:45 pm)
I am in the hi-fi trade
Status: Manufacturer
Company Name: NVA Hi-Fi
https://nvahifi.co.uk/

User avatar
CN211276
Posts: 6522
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:29 am
Location: Cardiff
Has thanked: 1401 times
Been thanked: 976 times
EUROPEAN_UNION

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by CN211276 »

savvypaul wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:38 am I get the occasional email from someone who wants to know the measurements. The conversation usually goes something like this....

Can you give me all the measurements for the S80?

w250mm x h65mm x d205mm

No, I mean the measured specs.

Power Output - 35w
Power Supply - 80va


No, I mean the measured performance.

We measure that with our ears.

Well, can you give me those measurements?

No, you listen to it, then you tell us the measurements.

I can't do that.

Why not?

How would I be able to tell the measurements just from listening to it?

Well, why do you want the measurements?

So, I will know what it sounds like before I listen to it.
.
.
.
NVA is not for you.

I don't think RD would have been so diplomatic. :lol:

I think this sort of thinking goes a long way to explaining the popularity of WAF speakers.
These users thanked the author CN211276 for the post (total 2):
karatestu (Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:59 pm) • Lindsayt (Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:49 pm)
Main System
NVA BMU, P90SA/A80s (latest spec), Cube 1s, TIS, TISC(LS7)
Sonore OpticalRendu, Chord Mscaler & Qutest, Sbooster PSs
Network Acoustics Eno, ifi iPurifier3, AQ JB FMJ, Cisco 2940 & 2960
DH Labs ethernet, BNC & USB cables, Farnells cat 8 ethernet cable

Second System
NVA P20/ A20, Cubettes, LS3, SSP, SC
Sonore MicroRendu, Chord Mojo 2 MCRU PSs, AQ Carbon USB cable & JB FMJ

Headphones
Grado SR325e/Chord Mojo, Beyerdynamic Avetho/AQ DF Colbat

RIP Doc

montechristo358
Posts: 278
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:35 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 19 times
Great Britain

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by montechristo358 »

i see the theoretical benefit of measurements to compare 2 speakers but to expect to know what it will sound by just from the specs is somewhat optimistic
Bedroom Rig
PiCorePlayer Squeezebox clone, Allo Boss Dac, NVA AP10H with Stepped Attenuator upgrade and external PSU, Audioquest Nightowl Cans, NVA mini BMU

Office Rig
PicorepLayer Squezeebox clone with HifiBerry DIGI+, NVA SSP Digital, Arcam AV9. NVA SSC, NVA AP10P, NVA LS5, NVA Cubettes, NVA Mini BMU

Kitchen Rig
PicorepLayer Squezeebox clone with HifiBerry DAC+, NVA SSC, NVA P50, Project AMPBox, Sonance Ceiling Speakers

User avatar
CN211276
Posts: 6522
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:29 am
Location: Cardiff
Has thanked: 1401 times
Been thanked: 976 times
EUROPEAN_UNION

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by CN211276 »

Quoted from a sticky on ASR.

It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
My ears still play games with me on a regular basis. But now I call them on their bullshit. I don't buy what my own ears are selling! There's nothing wrong with feeling like you hear a benefit from one dac or another. The issue arises when you state publicly that one dac (or amp) or another sounds better. If you are going to make that claim here, you need to have something more than just your ears to back it up.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

They dont trust their ears because they "play games" and there seems to be a lot of it about.
These users thanked the author CN211276 for the post (total 4):
Lindsayt (Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:02 pm) • savvypaul (Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:04 pm) • CycleCoach (Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:27 pm) • NSNO2021 (Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:59 pm)
Main System
NVA BMU, P90SA/A80s (latest spec), Cube 1s, TIS, TISC(LS7)
Sonore OpticalRendu, Chord Mscaler & Qutest, Sbooster PSs
Network Acoustics Eno, ifi iPurifier3, AQ JB FMJ, Cisco 2940 & 2960
DH Labs ethernet, BNC & USB cables, Farnells cat 8 ethernet cable

Second System
NVA P20/ A20, Cubettes, LS3, SSP, SC
Sonore MicroRendu, Chord Mojo 2 MCRU PSs, AQ Carbon USB cable & JB FMJ

Headphones
Grado SR325e/Chord Mojo, Beyerdynamic Avetho/AQ DF Colbat

RIP Doc

User avatar
savvypaul
Posts: 8635
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm
Location: Durham
Has thanked: 1657 times
Been thanked: 2978 times
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by savvypaul »

You couldn't make them up...the intelligent idiots.
These users thanked the author savvypaul for the post (total 2):
Lindsayt (Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:02 pm) • Bencat57 (Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:31 am)
I am in the hi-fi trade
Status: Manufacturer
Company Name: NVA Hi-Fi
https://nvahifi.co.uk/

Grumpytim
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 am
Has thanked: 354 times
Been thanked: 330 times
Columbia

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Grumpytim »

CN211276 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:12 pm Quoted from a sticky on ASR.

It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
My ears still play games with me on a regular basis. But now I call them on their bullshit. I don't buy what my own ears are selling! There's nothing wrong with feeling like you hear a benefit from one dac or another. The issue arises when you state publicly that one dac (or amp) or another sounds better. If you are going to make that claim here, you need to have something more than just your ears to back it up.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

They dont trust their ears because they "play games" and there seems to be a lot of it about.
Words fail me, so if a measurement, however nebulous is trusted over what you hear, then there must be an awful lot of systems out there that are absolutely unlistenable. Also what about component matching, the amp, DAC, cables and speakers may all measure like a big wobbly pair of mutts nuts but the combination of parts may blah blah rant.... (you all know the words)

I can't remember the last time I looked at the specs of a DAC, amp or whatever, so I guess that's not the forum for me..
These users thanked the author Grumpytim for the post (total 3):
savvypaul (Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:50 pm) • CN211276 (Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:54 pm) • Lindsayt (Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:20 pm)

antonio66
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:16 am
Location: Grimsby/Phnom Penh
Has thanked: 1449 times
Been thanked: 408 times
Great Britain

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by antonio66 »

CN211276 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:12 pm Quoted from a sticky on ASR.

It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
My ears still play games with me on a regular basis. But now I call them on their bullshit. I don't buy what my own ears are selling! There's nothing wrong with feeling like you hear a benefit from one dac or another. The issue arises when you state publicly that one dac (or amp) or another sounds better. If you are going to make that claim here, you need to have something more than just your ears to back it up.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

They dont trust their ears because they "play games" and there seems to be a lot of it about.
Unbelievable

User avatar
Neonknight
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:49 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Neonknight »

savvypaul wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm You couldn't make them up...the intelligent idiots.
This mindset doesn't make sense either, and really leaves me wondering. Ears fooling a person, so what the graph shows is the only reality? I can't remember a time when I heard a system that I liked, and whenever I revisited it I didn't like it. Whether its my system, a friends, or even one in an audio store. Heck I have wanted to like a component, but after listening to it I could not, apparently my ears were not working hard enough to fool me.

Once again, why does it have to be one or the other? I can see a measured frequency response done in room as a valuable tool on how to set up and or adjust a system. Its also interesting to see if you can understand what you are hearing, and give context to what is occurring. But its not what you want to base a final decision on without any listening.

I find it interesting that people cannot be introspective and consider using all tools available to them to make an informed decision. I had a previous system in my other home where I used a DEQX to bi-amp, provide time correction, and measure FR and adjust with a parametric eq. The process worked very well, and I could correlate what I heard to what I measured. I also found that I could hear the effect of the processor on the overall sound, and that I could achieve a more realistic tone with it removed, although I now understood how to furnish the room and use a few acoustic panels disguised as art to deal with the most noticeable aberrations. In the end the stereo was simpler, but I found the info I needed to make meaningful system set up choices.
These users thanked the author Neonknight for the post (total 3):
karatestu (Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:22 am) • Lindsayt (Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:27 pm) • NSNO2021 (Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:01 pm)

Bencat57
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:02 pm
Location: Liverpool
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 116 times
Great Britain

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Bencat57 »

If you listen to music then all that really matters is what you ears tell your brain and what your brain tells you what this sound is . You can play me Bruce Springsteen singing on the most perfect measuring system there is and then on an awful system for measurement I still will not be able to listen to it with any joy . This is not because Bruce is a bad musician or can not sing (I have used Bruce just as an example we all have them) i just do not like his voice to me it sounds strained and not pleasant and that is going to be the final thing what I hear and my brain delivers to me will decide what sounds good . Until someone can measure why and how I like Tom Waits , Nina Simone , Bill Withers and a shed load more then the measurement is of no use . Arm / Cartridge mechanical compliance and electrical compliance are at least a starting point but I have heard even these mis matched but playing lovely music .

There is no right way or wrong way only your result for you , your ears , your system and your music . Provided it get you playing , singing , dancing, whooping to your music or even just a slight head nodding it does not matter that is what we are looking for .
These users thanked the author Bencat57 for the post (total 2):
CN211276 (Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:00 pm) • savvypaul (Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:13 pm)

User avatar
savvypaul
Posts: 8635
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm
Location: Durham
Has thanked: 1657 times
Been thanked: 2978 times
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by savvypaul »

Neonknight wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:09 am
savvypaul wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm You couldn't make them up...the intelligent idiots.
This mindset doesn't make sense either, and really leaves me wondering. Ears fooling a person, so what the graph shows is the only reality? I can't remember a time when I heard a system that I liked, and whenever I revisited it I didn't like it. Whether its my system, a friends, or even one in an audio store. Heck I have wanted to like a component, but after listening to it I could not, apparently my ears were not working hard enough to fool me.

Once again, why does it have to be one or the other? I can see a measured frequency response done in room as a valuable tool on how to set up and or adjust a system. Its also interesting to see if you can understand what you are hearing, and give context to what is occurring. But its not what you want to base a final decision on without any listening.

I find it interesting that people cannot be introspective and consider using all tools available to them to make an informed decision. I had a previous system in my other home where I used a DEQX to bi-amp, provide time correction, and measure FR and adjust with a parametric eq. The process worked very well, and I could correlate what I heard to what I measured. I also found that I could hear the effect of the processor on the overall sound, and that I could achieve a more realistic tone with it removed, although I now understood how to furnish the room and use a few acoustic panels disguised as art to deal with the most noticeable aberrations. In the end the stereo was simpler, but I found the info I needed to make meaningful system set up choices.
I can see in-room measurements and DSP being useful for dealers. Much easier to tweak a few buttons than to tell the customer that the speakers should be in a different place and they need to move some furniture around. 90% of the time, the customer will be none the wiser...and I've nothing against it until those dealers aggressively spam forums to tell you that this way is best - it's not, it's a compromise.

When you did your own in-room measurements, did you get anything from those measurements that you hadn't already detected by ear?
These users thanked the author savvypaul for the post:
Lindsayt (Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:28 pm)
I am in the hi-fi trade
Status: Manufacturer
Company Name: NVA Hi-Fi
https://nvahifi.co.uk/

Post Reply