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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:38 am
by savvypaul
I get the occasional email from someone who wants to know the measurements. The conversation usually goes something like this....
Can you give me all the measurements for the S80?
w250mm x h65mm x d205mm
No, I mean the measured specs.
Power Output - 35w
Power Supply - 80va
No, I mean the measured performance.
We measure that with our ears.
Well, can you give me those measurements?
No, you listen to it, then you tell us the measurements.
I can't do that.
Why not?
How would I be able to tell the measurements just from listening to it?
Well, why do you want the measurements?
So, I will know what it sounds like before I listen to it.
.
.
.
NVA is not for you.
Where we go out of our way to help is regarding electrical compatibility. We'll track down the impedance curve for your speakers and look beyond the basic specs. For example, a chap with a pair of Scansonic speakers got in touch. Nominal impedance 6 ohms - borderline for NVA, on paper - but when we looked at the curve, 6ohms turned out to be the lowest impedance point, and that was at a benign point in the frequency range. A very nice potential match. Other manufactures, though, quote a nominal impedance that is much greater than the lowest impedance points across the range. The devil is in the detail. Impedance still doesn't tell you nearly everything about how they will sound - but it is useful for assessing electrical compatibility. Lindasy's cartridge / arm matching example is the same with regard to mechanical compatibility.
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:49 pm
by CN211276
savvypaul wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:38 am
I get the occasional email from someone who wants to know the measurements. The conversation usually goes something like this....
Can you give me all the measurements for the S80?
w250mm x h65mm x d205mm
No, I mean the measured specs.
Power Output - 35w
Power Supply - 80va
No, I mean the measured performance.
We measure that with our ears.
Well, can you give me those measurements?
No, you listen to it, then you tell us the measurements.
I can't do that.
Why not?
How would I be able to tell the measurements just from listening to it?
Well, why do you want the measurements?
So, I will know what it sounds like before I listen to it.
.
.
.
NVA is not for you.
I don't think RD would have been so diplomatic.
I think this sort of thinking goes a long way to explaining the popularity of WAF speakers.
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:27 pm
by montechristo358
i see the theoretical benefit of measurements to compare 2 speakers but to expect to know what it will sound by just from the specs is somewhat optimistic
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:12 pm
by CN211276
Quoted from a sticky on ASR.
It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
My ears still play games with me on a regular basis. But now I call them on their bullshit. I don't buy what my own ears are selling! There's nothing wrong with feeling like you hear a benefit from one dac or another. The issue arises when you state publicly that one dac (or amp) or another sounds better. If you are going to make that claim here, you need to have something more than just your ears to back it up.
They dont trust their ears because they "play games" and there seems to be a lot of it about.
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm
by savvypaul
You couldn't make them up...the intelligent idiots.
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:34 pm
by Grumpytim
CN211276 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:12 pm
Quoted from a sticky on ASR.
It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
My ears still play games with me on a regular basis. But now I call them on their bullshit. I don't buy what my own ears are selling! There's nothing wrong with feeling like you hear a benefit from one dac or another. The issue arises when you state publicly that one dac (or amp) or another sounds better. If you are going to make that claim here, you need to have something more than just your ears to back it up.
They dont trust their ears because they "play games" and there seems to be a lot of it about.
Words fail me, so if a measurement, however nebulous is trusted over what you hear, then there must be an awful lot of systems out there that are absolutely unlistenable. Also what about component matching, the amp, DAC, cables and speakers may all measure like a big wobbly pair of mutts nuts but the combination of parts may blah blah rant.... (you all know the words)
I can't remember the last time I looked at the specs of a DAC, amp or whatever, so I guess that's not the forum for me..
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:13 pm
by antonio66
CN211276 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:12 pm
Quoted from a sticky on ASR.
It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
My ears still play games with me on a regular basis. But now I call them on their bullshit. I don't buy what my own ears are selling! There's nothing wrong with feeling like you hear a benefit from one dac or another. The issue arises when you state publicly that one dac (or amp) or another sounds better. If you are going to make that claim here, you need to have something more than just your ears to back it up.
They dont trust their ears because they "play games" and there seems to be a lot of it about.
Unbelievable
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:09 am
by Neonknight
savvypaul wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm
You couldn't make them up...the intelligent idiots.
This mindset doesn't make sense either, and really leaves me wondering. Ears fooling a person, so what the graph shows is the only reality? I can't remember a time when I heard a system that I liked, and whenever I revisited it I didn't like it. Whether its my system, a friends, or even one in an audio store. Heck I have wanted to like a component, but after listening to it I could not, apparently my ears were not working hard enough to fool me.
Once again, why does it have to be one or the other? I can see a measured frequency response done in room as a valuable tool on how to set up and or adjust a system. Its also interesting to see if you can understand what you are hearing, and give context to what is occurring. But its not what you want to base a final decision on without any listening.
I find it interesting that people cannot be introspective and consider using all tools available to them to make an informed decision. I had a previous system in my other home where I used a DEQX to bi-amp, provide time correction, and measure FR and adjust with a parametric eq. The process worked very well, and I could correlate what I heard to what I measured. I also found that I could hear the effect of the processor on the overall sound, and that I could achieve a more realistic tone with it removed, although I now understood how to furnish the room and use a few acoustic panels disguised as art to deal with the most noticeable aberrations. In the end the stereo was simpler, but I found the info I needed to make meaningful system set up choices.
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 am
by Bencat57
If you listen to music then all that really matters is what you ears tell your brain and what your brain tells you what this sound is . You can play me Bruce Springsteen singing on the most perfect measuring system there is and then on an awful system for measurement I still will not be able to listen to it with any joy . This is not because Bruce is a bad musician or can not sing (I have used Bruce just as an example we all have them) i just do not like his voice to me it sounds strained and not pleasant and that is going to be the final thing what I hear and my brain delivers to me will decide what sounds good . Until someone can measure why and how I like Tom Waits , Nina Simone , Bill Withers and a shed load more then the measurement is of no use . Arm / Cartridge mechanical compliance and electrical compliance are at least a starting point but I have heard even these mis matched but playing lovely music .
There is no right way or wrong way only your result for you , your ears , your system and your music . Provided it get you playing , singing , dancing, whooping to your music or even just a slight head nodding it does not matter that is what we are looking for .
Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:22 pm
by savvypaul
Neonknight wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:09 am
savvypaul wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:43 pm
You couldn't make them up...the intelligent idiots.
This mindset doesn't make sense either, and really leaves me wondering. Ears fooling a person, so what the graph shows is the only reality? I can't remember a time when I heard a system that I liked, and whenever I revisited it I didn't like it. Whether its my system, a friends, or even one in an audio store. Heck I have wanted to like a component, but after listening to it I could not, apparently my ears were not working hard enough to fool me.
Once again, why does it have to be one or the other? I can see a measured frequency response done in room as a valuable tool on how to set up and or adjust a system. Its also interesting to see if you can understand what you are hearing, and give context to what is occurring. But its not what you want to base a final decision on without any listening.
I find it interesting that people cannot be introspective and consider using all tools available to them to make an informed decision. I had a previous system in my other home where I used a DEQX to bi-amp, provide time correction, and measure FR and adjust with a parametric eq. The process worked very well, and I could correlate what I heard to what I measured. I also found that I could hear the effect of the processor on the overall sound, and that I could achieve a more realistic tone with it removed, although I now understood how to furnish the room and use a few acoustic panels disguised as art to deal with the most noticeable aberrations. In the end the stereo was simpler, but I found the info I needed to make meaningful system set up choices.
I can see in-room measurements and DSP being useful for dealers. Much easier to tweak a few buttons than to tell the customer that the speakers should be in a different place and they need to move some furniture around. 90% of the time, the customer will be none the wiser...and I've nothing against it until those dealers aggressively spam forums to tell you that this way is best - it's not, it's a compromise.
When you did your own in-room measurements, did you get anything from those measurements that you hadn't already detected by ear?