ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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SteveTheShadow
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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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karatestu wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:37 pm
SteveTheShadow wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:22 pm I'm done with this audiophile bollocks to tell you the truth. Life's too short not to be enjoying the music.
I've been thinking that too The music is what it is. Let's just enjoy it for what it is. Dua Lipa and Imagine Dragons sound fine to me and they are Radio 1 favourites and only two or three years old.

I can't wait til I have finished my system (I have all the bits) so I can try and banish the ocd tendencies and put my feet up. All that is left to do then is wean myself off forums and just listen to music :grin:
Yep, and everything I’ve done, apart from the science of calculating voltages and currents across and through valves and measuring the resulting circuit conditions, has involved extensive use of the ears. Therefore I can’t prove to the ASR crowd that I’ve got a system worthy of being called a hi-fi. Oh dear, how sad, never mind. :lol:
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karatestu (Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:45 am)
The pianist in today’s Play School, was William Blezard.

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Bencat57 »

The problem I have with measuring your tri amped speakers as described is that you measure them one at a time in isolation . Strange but I never listen to my system that way . I run now an active three way with lots of DSP and probably most of the things that Richard would often say was bollocks and got in the way . But it works for me if i wanted to make any measurements it would be with both speakers working and from the listening position . Yes i know and have read the reasons why this is wrong and will give this false reading and data , but at the end of the day that is where I will be sat listening and where I will be judging the sound from . If the current measuring systems are not able to do this then they need to be improved so they can as I want my system to sound its best and to adjust it so that where I sit and listen it sounds the best. I have also sat and listened to a system using incredibly expensive DSP units (over £30,000) which would produce at the touch of a button a true flat response in room for your system sounded awful why would anyone want to listen to that yet we are told that is the holy grail a true flat response adding nothing subtracting nothing but frankly dull lifeless and boring would stop listening to music if that was the only sound I could use . The issue is if you can achieve a perfect measurement response then wonderful but thinking that is then the best musical signal is just plain wrong . Tests use tones not music so the result will accurate for a tone but not always for music. DIRAC Live uses multiple microphone measurements but the first and most important and the basis of all the filters is at ear height from the listening position all additional measurments are overlayed and compared to this. The sweep also consists of left speaker then right speaker then both together .
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Colin Wonfor (Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:09 pm)

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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Bencat57 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:08 pm The problem I have with measuring your tri amped speakers as described is that you measure them one at a time in isolation . Strange but I never listen to my system that way . I run now an active three way with lots of DSP and probably most of the things that Richard would often say was bollocks and got in the way . But it works for me if i wanted to make any measurements it would be with both speakers working and from the listening position . Yes i know and have read the reasons why this is wrong and will give this false reading and data , but at the end of the day that is where I will be sat listening and where I will be judging the sound from . If the current measuring systems are not able to do this then they need to be improved so they can as I want my system to sound its best and to adjust it so that where I sit and listen it sounds the best. I have also sat and listened to a system using incredibly expensive DSP units (over £30,000) which would produce at the touch of a button a true flat response in room for your system sounded awful why would anyone want to listen to that yet we are told that is the holy grail a true flat response adding nothing subtracting nothing but frankly dull lifeless and boring would stop listening to music if that was the only sound I could use . The issue is if you can achieve a perfect measurement response then wonderful but thinking that is then the best musical signal is just plain wrong . Tests use tones not music so the result will accurate for a tone but not always for music. DIRAC Live uses multiple microphone measurements but the first and most important and the basis of all the filters is at ear height from the listening position all additional measurments are overlayed and compared to this. The sweep also consists of left speaker then right speaker then both together .
There was two sets of measurements occurring. The one set where a speaker is moved to the exact center of the room, including height is to minimize the effects of the room to calculate drivers response for electronic crossover points. It could be done outside also, but I did not feel like moving an entire stereo to do so.

The second set of measurements does indeed measure the entire speaker system with microphone at the listening position. That takes into account both speakers from their normal position and subwoofer. Microphone was located at the back of the listening chair at head level. This one is where room response is measured and time delay and parametric eq adjustments are made. Yes it sweeps left and right speakers, and then both together also. The DEQX was a commercial system, and was released around 2011 or thereabouts, so its around 10 years old. Was one of the more highly regarded processors at the time, but probably a bit dated in terms of technology now.
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Bencat57 (Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:06 am) • Colin Wonfor (Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:09 pm)

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karatestu
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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by karatestu »

I just joined a new forum called hifihaven. North American. Found Colin Wonfor has his own room - fook me this guy is everywhere :lol: I love Colin.

Anyway they quite like me. I am currently educating them in the art of constructing awful looking sound reproduction equipment. Maybe this will catch on :think:

The Doc got banned from there in 2015 or thereabouts. I don't intend getting banned. Never been banned from anywhere apart from my local boozer one time. I won't go into that here though. :oops:

#Spreading the goodness.
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CN211276 (Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:30 pm)
DIY inspired by Richard "The Doc" Dunn RIP

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Colin Wonfor »

I love you to, BIG HUG to keep the C Bug away.
I got banned from the Naim Forum and TAS and my own eh.
Also banned from flying helicopters through hanger at NASA, there were no fun. he he
It can be done so imagine it.

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

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They like you on HiFiHaven Stu! - Really they'll just think of you as another eccentric Brit, why do you think they let Colin have his own room :lol:

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Having been away for a few weeks I see that measurement has come back as a discussion topic. As an engineer I know that some measurements are essential; airspeed when trying to fly for example. Other measurements, whilst necessary aren't meaningful; power output when specifying a heat sink or a power transformer. Essential but not of any use what so ever for the eventual buyer. As an example, I know that the 747-400 was originally delivered with a 1KVA static inverter. Why, as a maintenance engineer, I need to know that is an excellent question.

Working with live sound I have had occasion to look at replacement speaker systems, it appears that high power is now the order of the day and multi-channel amplifiers with 1KW per channel outputs are being suggested by various suppliers. Worse they are class D! The current set-up uses an ancient 150W stereo amplifier and that isn't being driven terribly hard at sound levels that can become uncomfortable. What would I be expected to do with several KW?

Numbers are really useful in the right place but listening to music is nothing to do with numbers, except perhaps the number of zeros after the £ on the price tag. The more zeros, the more you are being taken for a ride.
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Lindsayt (Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:18 pm)

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Re: ASR and the rise of the intelligent idiots

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Having read the whole thread I feel the need to comment on compression. I have a friend who likes compressors and uses them quite aggressively however as he is a musician he can't be playing guitar and driving the desk 20 metres away so I always wind off most of the compression. It is quite instructive to listen to the difference, the whole sound becomes more dynamic with the compression wound back.

Another friend, who used to run a recording studio, once told me that if you could hear the effect of a compressor you were using too much! Compressors, I am told, started life in aviation where one doesn't want to drive a control to the stops at maximum speed, compressing the input means that the control moves quickly over the middle of its range but very high input levels are attenuated to prevent hitting the stops. What works for an autopilot isn't exactly what one wants for a vocal track.

Compressors are a necessary evil when live streaming, YouTube limits the maximum level so to make things sound loud some dynamics end up being sacrificed. Speech also tends to be set at a higher level for the stream than in-house (blame the BBC for that). Compression is also of some benefit where digital processing is used, clipping into a digital recorder or mixer is far more unpleasant than into analogue devices, but avoiding clipping is a far better solution. To avoid clipping however one has to accept that things can't always be super loud, something some younger people have difficulty accepting, the friend who likes compression is around 25.

Of course there is also the deliberate use of heavy compression to create an "effect" but that shouldn't affect more than the instrument on which it is being applied. In most cases I regard the use of more than very gentle compression as a lazy way to avoid setting the sound up correctly in the first place*.

*I now expect to be castigated by those trained sound engineers who thing compression just allows them to make everything loud.
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ArloFlynn (Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 am)

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