Lost for words

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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by slinger »

Actually, the humming, or hamming(?) is back, but it may be the flies I'm hearing now.
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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Funny you should say that, I get this rushing water noise sometimes. It goes away when the heating goes off! Removing that fuse really improves the sound from my system.

My point was that if you replace a fuse with a copper bar the sound improves. Nobody is arguing otherwise. So, subjectively, the fuse is affecting the sound. Why? How?

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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by Neonknight »

antonio66 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:49 am I believe we've done this subject before, not for a $700 fuse but those ranging in price from £30-130. Nice of you to put yourself up for ridicule NK :lol: only joking, may I ask what pieces of equipment have you got these fuses in, and why have you not replaced all with one?
The ACME fuses were bought for a PS Audio BHK Signature pre amp and a BHK Signature 250 amplifier. Both of these are hybrid tube/mosfet designs designed by Bascom King. At this point I had discovered that I am no longer fond of the presentation of tubes, at least with the JBL speakers I had, and I was looking to eek out the last drops of low level detail and resolution i could, and minimize the tube warmth I had. I had found tubes that I could live with, but to be honest I had gone through a smattering of expensive NOS tubes from Siemmens, Amperex, and Mullard and found I really did not like the sound. The ACME tubes allowed me to move closer to the sound I was looking for, but I never did get there. I eventually moved the components on and bought the Halcro DM8 pre amp and the AVM Audio Essential Monoblock amps and like their presentation as is. So I never went exploring for fuses for those components. But I have thought about it, given the success I have had in the past with getting an improvement in sound.

The Audio Magic fuse is in my Kukama DAC. I have compared it against an ACME silver fuse that is also the right size but slightly higher value in order to see what the differences are. The Audio Magic fuse gets the texture of the music more right from what I hear, it just sounds better balanced, the ACME fuse in this application sounds lighter with less harmonic density. Which also seems to make the higher registers smoother. So I keep the Audio Magic fuses in there, but now that I think about it these are probably $100 fuses. Now there is a bunch of cryptic descriptions on the website about how these fuses are made, and if I was just shopping for them I would be quite skeptical of the whole thing. But since I have had them here, and have no significant financial investment in them I just evaluate them on their merits. For me these fuses work quite well.

Several years ago I remember reading a bit of information where a manufacturer of audio electronics investigated this whole fuse thing, and decided there was some merit to it. They did not go with boutique fuses for their products, but found performance improvement with sand filled ceramic fuses which are readily available in the market from industrial manufacturers. I wish I could find a link to this but it has been so many years ago. What I did find is that Littelfuse ended up offering premium fuses under their own name which is an unusual move for an industrial manufacturer. I wonder if they are still available. I think these would be it, I guess built for medical and lab equipment and commandeered by audiophiles.

https://www.littelfuse.com/products/fus ... s/285.aspx

Maybe I should give some of them a try? I did see that there is a thread on them at Audiogon and one fellow compared them to some Synergistic Blue fuses he has. I would never play in that end of the fuse pool so the comparison does not mean a lot to me, but its interesting to see what the differences are.
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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by karatestu »

Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:16 pm

My point was that if you replace a fuse with a copper bar the sound improves. Nobody is arguing otherwise. So, subjectively, the fuse is affecting the sound. Why? How?
I have no idea Geoff. For me it is something that I refuse to become interested in. It's the start of a very slippery slope. £30 a pop is not too bad but anything more than that seems ridiculously expensive.

Does anybody know exactly why or how ?
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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by Neonknight »

karatestu wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:35 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:16 pm

My point was that if you replace a fuse with a copper bar the sound improves. Nobody is arguing otherwise. So, subjectively, the fuse is affecting the sound. Why? How?
I have no idea Geoff. For me it is something that I refuse to become interested in. It's the start of a very slippery slope. £30 a pop is not too bad but anything more than that seems ridiculously expensive.

Does anybody know exactly why or how ?
Maybe a dalliance with the Littelton fuses as listed in my previous post is worth exploring, they are inexpensive and perhaps will provide some insights. Here is a link to the ACME products, perhaps there is a UK distributor?

https://acmeaudiolabs.com/products

Weird that their dealer list does not show the one I bought from, so perhaps this list is incomplete. Just a thought, if you are willing do dabble a bit.

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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by CN211276 »

I am coming round to the opinion that fuses do effect SQ. But that supports my belief that the best solution is no fuse at all. Where the analogue chain is concerned, less is more.
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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Neonknight wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:03 pm
karatestu wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:35 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:16 pm

My point was that if you replace a fuse with a copper bar the sound improves. Nobody is arguing otherwise. So, subjectively, the fuse is affecting the sound. Why? How?
I have no idea Geoff. For me it is something that I refuse to become interested in. It's the start of a very slippery slope. £30 a pop is not too bad but anything more than that seems ridiculously expensive.

Does anybody know exactly why or how ?
Maybe a dalliance with the Littelton fuses as listed in my previous post is worth exploring, they are inexpensive and perhaps will provide some insights. Here is a link to the ACME products, perhaps there is a UK distributor?

https://acmeaudiolabs.com/products

Weird that their dealer list does not show the one I bought from, so perhaps this list is incomplete. Just a thought, if you are willing do dabble a bit.
After 45 years of dealing with electricity, electronics and the like professionally there is no way I am experimenting with fuses that cost one penny more than necessary. For mains that means any fuse that I can't bet on the high street. As far as I am concerned a fuse is a fuse is a fuse, it is intended to fail when excessive current flows through it. I can't prove that it will do so except by destructive testing. If I buy a Kite* marked fuse I can be reasonably sure that it will work as advertised because the manufacturer has done the testing required.

From what I have seen these "special" fuses are not approved in any way. The fuse in a circuit is there for a reason and it should do the job without affecting the performance of the circuit. Can any of us be assured, in the absence of any approval markings, that these expensive fuses will work as intended by the circuit designer?

Can fuses affect the sound, possibly, but remember if you replace the fuse in, for example, the amplifier there is still the a fuse/breaker at the consumer unit. Is that affecting the sound? Will you go and pay $/£ X00 for super fuse wire to eliminate that. What about the board's fuses where the supply enters your house? The breaker at the sub-station etc. Sorry but is tinkering with one fuse of the, possibly, dozens between your Hi-Fi and the generator really going to make a difference?
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karatestu (Sat May 08, 2021 5:34 pm)

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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by Neonknight »

Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:28 pm
Neonknight wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:03 pm
karatestu wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:35 pm

I have no idea Geoff. For me it is something that I refuse to become interested in. It's the start of a very slippery slope. £30 a pop is not too bad but anything more than that seems ridiculously expensive.

Does anybody know exactly why or how ?
Maybe a dalliance with the Littelton fuses as listed in my previous post is worth exploring, they are inexpensive and perhaps will provide some insights. Here is a link to the ACME products, perhaps there is a UK distributor?

https://acmeaudiolabs.com/products

Weird that their dealer list does not show the one I bought from, so perhaps this list is incomplete. Just a thought, if you are willing do dabble a bit.
After 45 years of dealing with electricity, electronics and the like professionally there is no way I am experimenting with fuses that cost one penny more than necessary. For mains that means any fuse that I can't bet on the high street. As far as I am concerned a fuse is a fuse is a fuse, it is intended to fail when excessive current flows through it. I can't prove that it will do so except by destructive testing. If I buy a Kite* marked fuse I can be reasonably sure that it will work as advertised because the manufacturer has done the testing required.

From what I have seen these "special" fuses are not approved in any way. The fuse in a circuit is there for a reason and it should do the job without affecting the performance of the circuit. Can any of us be assured, in the absence of any approval markings, that these expensive fuses will work as intended by the circuit designer?

Can fuses affect the sound, possibly, but remember if you replace the fuse in, for example, the amplifier there is still the a fuse/breaker at the consumer unit. Is that affecting the sound? Will you go and pay $/£ X00 for super fuse wire to eliminate that. What about the board's fuses where the supply enters your house? The breaker at the sub-station etc. Sorry but is tinkering with one fuse of the, possibly, dozens between your Hi-Fi and the generator really going to make a difference?
Then what about the Littelton? They are UL approved and are a manufacturer for industrial fields. These are supposedly higher grade offerings for medical and instrument applications, and also designated for audio use. That should meet your criteria. They are not from a boutique audio company.

I certainly hear you about the supply chain for AC and what is downstream and what should affect what. It makes logical sense. But have you ever heard a component or set up that is contrary to accepted belief, common sense, or what we believe electrical logic should predict? If so, why not listen and make the decision yourself. Especially when a trial fuse can be relatively cheap, its just a matter of locating them and ordering it.

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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Neonknight wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm Then what about the Littelton? They are UL approved and are a manufacturer for industrial fields. These are supposedly higher grade offerings for medical and instrument applications, and also designated for audio use. That should meet your criteria. They are not from a boutique audio company.

I certainly hear you about the supply chain for AC and what is downstream and what should affect what. It makes logical sense. But have you ever heard a component or set up that is contrary to accepted belief, common sense, or what we believe electrical logic should predict? If so, why not listen and make the decision yourself. Especially when a trial fuse can be relatively cheap, its just a matter of locating them and ordering it.
Sorry but cynicism comes with the job! I would be more inclined to experiment if it I knew what made, say, the Littleton fuse different. As it is all we know about any of these "special" fuses is what we are told by the manufacturer, short to taking one to pieces there is nothing except the markings to distinguish them from the high street devices. I am at a loss to understand how you can take a 20mm length of wire, run it through a glass or ceramic tube and attach caps to the ends in a different way. Obviously you can change the composition of the wire and plate the end caps. You might solder the wire to the end caps, if that is legal where you are. I tried googling Littleton but didn't find anything. Being UL approved doesn't make it legal in the UK.

This might be of interest to UK members https://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/blog/Org ... nd-fakery/. This will be of interest to all members https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVJVswLbqaA it shows what can happen if there is no sand inside the ceramic tube.

It is the apparent simplicity of fuses that makes them a target for those who want to make money from "improvements". The same applies to cables, though as I have explained elsewhere, interconnects and speaker cables have characteristics that can improve the electrical matching between components. Unfortunately you may well have to try a number of different ones to find the one with the characteristics your components need but that is a different discussion.

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Re: Lost for words

Unread post by TheMadMick »

I took the "no fuse" line seriously and wired in a Schuko socket into the ring main, put in a 16A trip in the fuse box and heard very little difference.

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