Thought provoking article

All general audio posts go here.
User avatar
Lindsayt
Posts: 4213
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 pm
Has thanked: 1079 times
Been thanked: 692 times
Nauru

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:00 pm
I don't think asking for compressed and uncompressed versions is realistic.
Take this example, I want the uncompressed version but it is likely that most of my listening will be in a car where the compressed version would be the better option.
It's only unrealistic because of the complete pig-headedness attitude of the music industry. They've got their heads so far stuck up their own arses they've forgotten what roses smell like.

My Kraftwerk CD in my 15 year old Volvo diesel sounds better than Cheryl Completely Overcompressed Cole.
I disagree totally that compressed CD's sound better in car than uncompressed.

Geoff.R.G
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:46 pm
Location: Denham UK
Has thanked: 132 times
Been thanked: 476 times
Great Britain

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Lindsayt wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:33 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:00 pm
I don't think asking for compressed and uncompressed versions is realistic.
Take this example, I want the uncompressed version but it is likely that most of my listening will be in a car where the compressed version would be the better option.
It's only unrealistic because of the complete pig-headedness attitude of the music industry. They've got their heads so far stuck up their own arses they've forgotten what roses smell like.

My Kraftwerk CD in my 15 year old Volvo diesel sounds better than Cheryl Completely Overcompressed Cole.
I disagree totally that compressed CD's sound better in car than uncompressed.
The noise floor in a car is pretty high, significantly higher than in a domestic living room, so the lowest volume that you can hear has to be above that floor. I don't know how you listen but I want to hear the quiet passages in music so I need the level of those quiet passages raised. Equally, I don't want the loud passages to blow the windows out so, if I am to hear everything it needs to fit within the available dynamic range between noise floor and hearing damage ceiling, making it fit requires compression*. If the music you listen too has "quiet" passages that are already above the noise floor you don't need to do anything with them likewise if the loud passages are below the hearing damage ceiling.

I know that much of what I want to listen to drops below the noise floor, my limited experience of Kraftwerk suggests that you don't have that problem. Realistically, despite the theoretical dynamic range of CD being around 100db the usable dynamic range is much less simply because chucking out music at over 100db won't please the neighbours. By the way, I do that most Sundays in a church but I wouldn't do it at home.

*I suspect, but can't prove, that many car audio systems use compression technology to make things sound better it is usually sold as "Loudness" control. Stick an unsympathetically compressed recording in there and it will indeed sound terrible. My upper limit may well be below yours.

User avatar
Lindsayt
Posts: 4213
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 pm
Has thanked: 1079 times
Been thanked: 692 times
Nauru

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Where has this 100dbs headroom come from?

A few years ago I took my calibrated sound pressure meter to a live event.

I'm working from memory here, but for string quartets at my listening position, about 5 rows from the front, the max sound once the music started was about 85dbs and the lowest about 60dbs. With most of it in the 70 to 80 db range.

For a full orchestra plus 15 person hand drum section, plus 2 amplified vocalist, bass guitar, 2 electric guitars and full drumkit, the loudest they got to was about 108db peaks and 50 to 60 db troughs.

In a car I would rather lose the low level details during quiet fractions of a second than lose the dynamics.

n a home where the background noise level is 35 to 40 dbs, the full dynamic range of live music can be reproduced at generous but not excessively ear ringingly loud volumes.

User avatar
Docfoster
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:06 am
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 129 times
Contact:
Wales

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by Docfoster »

Lindsayt wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:33 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:00 pm
I don't think asking for compressed and uncompressed versions is realistic.
Take this example, I want the uncompressed version but it is likely that most of my listening will be in a car where the compressed version would be the better option.
It's only unrealistic because of the complete pig-headedness attitude of the music industry. They've got their heads so far stuck up their own arses they've forgotten what roses smell like.
They care more about the price of roses, I suspect.
There’s probably little economic incentive for them to meet the peculiar needs of a tiny minority of lunatics like you and me who spend time at concerts measuring dB levels.
System 1: JRiver MC24 > Dell Latitude 7270 > Asus Xonar Essence One Muses Edition DAC & pre- > One4 Class A power amp (with Dynamic PSU boards) > DIY Monacor SP-310CX speakers & DIY Dayton Audio SD315A-88 bass cab.
LC Audio Technology mains DC filter > Sovereign MTBPS balanced power supply
TQ (Wonfor) Ultra Black cables.

System 2: Anything with a headphone socket > Inca Tech Claymore > DIY Monacor SP-308CX speakers

User avatar
SteveTheShadow
Posts: 1646
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 272 times
Been thanked: 339 times
Great Britain

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by SteveTheShadow »

NSNO2021 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:29 pm I like quite a few Stax albums, ditto Atlantic as I grew up on soul music, with all nighters/all dayers as part of our regular scene. I am not anti Tamla, its fun music but as a general rule I don't buy Tamla vinyl unless its decent like Inner Visions and that's what it is on my system - decent, not excellent and certainly not stunning. I guess that's why I only have 5 or 6 Tamla albums in a fair sized collection of music.
Sorry I wasn’t getting at you when I quoted your post. Maybe I just should have left out the quote and blathered on without it.
I love Motown, but it’s interesting that for as long as I can remember, soul nights have always been advertised as playing ‘Soul and Motown’ This I can understand as 60s Motown singles are arguably just pop music when all is said and done. The distinction between the four on the floor poppy Motown stomp and the brass blastin’ ‘soul’ and big city beat music around at the time, from the other labels, especially Scepter/Wand, can easily be heard by anyone but the cloth eared.

However, since I made my own system all music capable, I don’t care anymore about sound quality, compression or anything else. I simply enjoy the music for what it is. Depending on one’s point of view, it’s either an enviable position to be in or my system now simply majors in across the board mediocrity, is low resolution, and is no longer fit to be considered a hi-fi setup. Therefore I should just piss off from the forums, job done :lol:

BTW I like the article the OP refers to.
Reality is completely overrated when it comes to recordings IMO. It’s nice to have Patricia Barber blowing in your ear, I’ll admit, but sometimes I just want to rock to Chuck Berry, Elvis and Little Richard. It’s all equally valid and it all deserves to be allowed to give of its best.
Somebody’s telling me the latest scandals.
Somebody’s stepping on my plastic sandals. Joe Jackson (1979)

NSNO2021
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:06 pm
Location: Industrial waste lands of the north west
Has thanked: 559 times
Been thanked: 487 times
Great Britain

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by NSNO2021 »

Steve hand on my heart, I am happy with your replies. I enjoy your take on music and have a great deal of admiration for people like you, Stu, Ant etc etc who are sufficiently invested in music to go beyond using off the shelf stuff. Its one of the good things about HFS that it encourages and fosters music lovers to be curious, to experiment and not settle for whatever is considered the norm.
As a complete aside I was trying to get to the bottom of why I call Motown, Tamla and for the life of me I cannot fathom it out. Answers on a postcard to my shrink 😁
Modified Airlink BPS 3110S with LDA DC filter
TTs, Kenwood KD 8030 with AT OC9XSH, Opera Consonance Wax Engine mk2 with modified Apheta 2 MC cart, PT TOO awaiting restoration.
LDA MCJ3 phono,Schiit Freya plus pre amp, NAD M23, Audiolab 9000 CD transport, Denafrips Pontus 2 DAC, Mano Ultra2 streamer, Cisco switch, Audio Technica ATH 70 cans, Serhan Swift Mu2 mk2 speakers & NSNO W48.5 speaker cables

User avatar
Lindsayt
Posts: 4213
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 pm
Has thanked: 1079 times
Been thanked: 692 times
Nauru

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Docfoster wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:25 am
Lindsayt wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:33 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:00 pm
I don't think asking for compressed and uncompressed versions is realistic.
Take this example, I want the uncompressed version but it is likely that most of my listening will be in a car where the compressed version would be the better option.
It's only unrealistic because of the complete pig-headedness attitude of the music industry. They've got their heads so far stuck up their own arses they've forgotten what roses smell like.
They care more about the price of roses, I suspect.
There’s probably little economic incentive for them to meet the peculiar needs of a tiny minority of lunatics like you and me who spend time at concerts measuring dB levels.
You say that, and yet, how are the year on year recorded music sales looking like?

Maybe if the Music Industry churned out a better quality product, or better choice of product that might slow down or maybe even reverse the declining sales trend?

It's impossible to say one way or the other because no-one's doing it. Because they're all brainwashed sheep with their heads up their own arses.

It would at least be worth trying the marketing angle of non-compressed recordings. We would be looking at minimal additional cost to provide this option for each album. There are major stars that would endorse this marketing approach.

It would also be worth a major corporation doing a home hi-fi marketing revival. There's a lot of homes now that don't have a hi-fi system - compared to the early 1980's. That equals a big opportunity.

User avatar
CN211276
Posts: 6522
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:29 am
Location: Cardiff
Has thanked: 1401 times
Been thanked: 976 times
EUROPEAN_UNION

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by CN211276 »

It is sad that inspite of all the technological advances, more often than not, rock albums recorded in the 70s (not intended for the singles market and air play) sound better than those of today. This is all to do with compression. It is no coincidence that the 70s and 80s were the decades of the hifi boom, before ear buds, Amazon Echos, sound bars etc.
These users thanked the author CN211276 for the post:
Lindsayt (Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:03 pm)
Main System
NVA BMU, P90SA/A80s (latest spec), Cube 1s, TIS, TISC(LS7)
Sonore OpticalRendu, Chord Mscaler & Qutest, Sbooster PSs
Network Acoustics Eno, ifi iPurifier3, AQ JB FMJ, Cisco 2940 & 2960
DH Labs ethernet, BNC & USB cables, Farnells cat 8 ethernet cable

Second System
NVA P20/ A20, Cubettes, LS3, SSP, SC
Sonore MicroRendu, Chord Mojo 2 MCRU PSs, AQ Carbon USB cable & JB FMJ

Headphones
Grado SR325e/Chord Mojo, Beyerdynamic Avetho/AQ DF Colbat

RIP Doc

NSNO2021
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:06 pm
Location: Industrial waste lands of the north west
Has thanked: 559 times
Been thanked: 487 times
Great Britain

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by NSNO2021 »

Modified Airlink BPS 3110S with LDA DC filter
TTs, Kenwood KD 8030 with AT OC9XSH, Opera Consonance Wax Engine mk2 with modified Apheta 2 MC cart, PT TOO awaiting restoration.
LDA MCJ3 phono,Schiit Freya plus pre amp, NAD M23, Audiolab 9000 CD transport, Denafrips Pontus 2 DAC, Mano Ultra2 streamer, Cisco switch, Audio Technica ATH 70 cans, Serhan Swift Mu2 mk2 speakers & NSNO W48.5 speaker cables

Geoff.R.G
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:46 pm
Location: Denham UK
Has thanked: 132 times
Been thanked: 476 times
Great Britain

Re: Thought provoking article

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Lindsayt wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:05 am Where has this 100dbs headroom come from?
I don't know either. I said the dynamic range available from CD is around 100db. Headroom is the difference between the loudest sound/strongest signal and the point at which clipping occurs.

I am sure I don't need to say what dynamic range is. A dynamic range of 100db is equivalent to going from a quiet room to Concorde at take-off power. Real music doesn't use that range but, from experience, a five piece band or Keys, Guitar, Bass, drums and vocal can readily achieve an amplified C weighted 100db. The lowest level they might produce is nothing like 0db. I have never measured the quietest because it is the loudest that affect H and S and audio health.

Post Reply