Transformer Va.

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savvypaul
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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by savvypaul »

When you're making something commercially then there's a point beyond which the extra va isn't justified. As a Diyer, though, that point doesn't come along nearly as quickly, imo. Not just cost but also domestic practicality - the BBPSU sounds jaw droppingly dynamic, but it is a erm...big bastard!
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Geoff.R.G (Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:16 pm) • Lindsayt (Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:49 pm)
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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

savvypaul wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:14 pm When you're making something commercially then there's a point beyond which the extra va isn't justified. As a Diyer, though, that point doesn't come along nearly as quickly, imo. Not just cost but also domestic practicality - the BBPSU sounds jaw droppingly dynamic, but it is a erm...big bastard!
Pretty much nails it Paul, a manufacturer asks why? DIY is more a case of why not?
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savvypaul (Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:24 pm)

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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by savvypaul »

Going back to the car analogy, I'm far happier being very light-footed in a 2.5 litre, 5 cylinder barge (aka Volvo V70) than trying to hustle along a 1 litre jobbie.
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Geoff.R.G (Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:13 pm)
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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

savvypaul wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:31 pm Going back to the car analogy, I'm far happier being very light-footed in a 2.5 litre, 5 cylinder barge (aka Volvo V70) than trying to hustle along a 1 litre jobbie.
Likewise, which is why I have been known to drive speakers rated at 35W with a 50W amplifier. The set up is far too loud to ever get near full power, but I don’t let anyone else use it.

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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

Got the idea from the doc, he used 500va in his definitive phono stage.

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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Number Six »

Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:57 pm
Daniel Quinn wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:16 pm We're all amateurs.

I wrote I could hear the difference in a 500va transformer. You told me that was mad and a waste of money.

Ignoring how much I paid for the transformer, you questioned what I heard, which is a no no. By all means question why I heard it, even suggest it was psychological, but I would appreciate not being called a liar. 😉
If you say you can hear the difference, you can hear the difference. I would actually be more concerned if you said you couldn’t.

Sticking with the car analogy; drive the car with the more powerful engine and you will very soon realise how much more easily it does things, I would expect the same with a more powerful transformer.

Whether putting a 500VA transformer in a phono stage is a waste of money, only you can judge. Had you asked I might have suggested that it was excessive, it appears I would have been wrong. A bit like putting a 500HP engine in a Mini, you’ll probably never reach the limits of its performance.
Looks like my post was taken the wrong way. What i was trying to say was that a 500VA transformer would give an excessive amount of current on tap than ever required for such a unit. As mentioned elsewhere gains can be had by working with the caps. But its peoples choices what they want to do.

Daniel: Stop putting words in my mouth i never called you a liar.

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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Number Six wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:11 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:57 pm
Daniel Quinn wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:16 pm We're all amateurs.

I wrote I could hear the difference in a 500va transformer. You told me that was mad and a waste of money.

Ignoring how much I paid for the transformer, you questioned what I heard, which is a no no. By all means question why I heard it, even suggest it was psychological, but I would appreciate not being called a liar. 😉
If you say you can hear the difference, you can hear the difference. I would actually be more concerned if you said you couldn’t.

Sticking with the car analogy; drive the car with the more powerful engine and you will very soon realise how much more easily it does things, I would expect the same with a more powerful transformer.

Whether putting a 500VA transformer in a phono stage is a waste of money, only you can judge. Had you asked I might have suggested that it was excessive, it appears I would have been wrong. A bit like putting a 500HP engine in a Mini, you’ll probably never reach the limits of its performance.
Looks like my post was taken the wrong way. What i was trying to say was that a 500VA transformer would give an excessive amount of current on tap than ever required for such a unit. As mentioned elsewhere gains can be had by working with the caps. But its peoples choices what they want to do.

Daniel: Stop putting words in my mouth i never called you a liar.
The most likely effect of putting a 500VA transformer in a phono stage is that the quiescent current in the primary winding will be higher than for a lower power example. It is extremely unlikely that any normal signal would cause even a fraction of the maximum current to flow but the peak transient current will be reached more quickly than with a lower rated transformer. The result is likely to be reduced phase shift and distortion on large transients. There will come a point where a larger transformer will have no effect because something else will become the limiting factor.

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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Lindsayt »

The impression that I got with Richard's phono stage series is that he used the same signal path circuitry for the entire range. And that this part of the circuit was simple, had no transformers in the signal path and used good quality components, without going over the top and using a load of boutique mega-bucks components.

The bottom of the range Phono 1 - at the bake-off I attended - was clearly a very good sounding phono stage.
And then going up the range you got beefier power supplies that provided nice tweaks to the sound quality. Still the same basic sound, but audibly better in an A to B demo.

It's one of those where it doesn't matter if the improved sound quality was as a result of the greater power capacity of the mains transformers, or if it was as a side-effect or coincidence in having a beefier power supply, or a combination of both.
If it makes an audible improvement that you think is worth the money then it's worth having. And it's not a hugely productive use of time to have a post mortem to get to the bottom of exactly what it was about the change to the power supply that lead to the sonic improvements.
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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

Lyndsey the entire forum is not a productive use of time. Deosnt stop it being interesting.
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Lindsayt (Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 pm)

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Re: Transformer Va.

Unread post by Stemcor1990 »

I lost my NVA virginity to a Phono 1. Since then I’ve had a Phono 2, a Phono 2 with twin psus, a Phono 2 with a bbpsu and I bought a second bbpsu to get to a Phono 3. Unfortunately Richard passed away before the conversion could be done.

At every upgrade the music sounded more like people playing musical instruments. My understanding is that the phono circuit is the same in a P1 and P2 and a few tweaks for the P3.

If the increased power supply is beneficial to reproduction then I would argue that we do not have a full understanding of the circuit and/or the environment it is used in. To my mind, there are too many variables. This opens the door to the subjective v objective arguments but to be objective you do need to fully understand what is going on. I’m not having a pop at anybody here but I would trust my ears over any other argument. After all, it’s me who has to live with it !

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