Is it your system or your recordings?

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Geoff.R.G
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Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

In another thread we have discussed the variability of recordings. I mentioned that what we hear isn't necessarily the original sound but what the engineer wants us to hear.

Recently I have been clearing my mother's house and found a considerable number of vinyl recordings. I kept the interesting ones and gave the rest to a charity shop. The records I kept were of variable provenance, in terms of the source of the record. I have been playing some of them and the quality is somewhat variable. A recording of Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony seemed distorted on loud passages as did one of Beethoven's Violin Concerto. Was it my turntable/arm/cartridge/pre-amp? A new cartridge would be between £600 and £1,000, an arm? At least as much, same for a pre-amp.

Not wishing to part with that kind of money I played a record from my collection, no such problems. So what is going on. Simply the recordings I had played were from cheaper labels and I can only surmise that the mastering of the stamper just wasn't as good as on the expensive DGG Symphonie fantastique recording. It always was a case of buying good records rather than cheap ones but this was a really noticeable difference.

Before you take out a mortgage to buy new hardware, consider buying another copy of the recording that is giving you problems, especially if it is an analogue recording.
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Fretless (Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:17 pm) • TheRealAleman (Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:21 pm) • Nearlymusical (Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:27 pm)

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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by slinger »

Geoff.R.G wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:01 pm In another thread we have discussed the variability of recordings. I mentioned that what we hear isn't necessarily the original sound but what the engineer wants us to hear.
...
I'll go a step or two further than that, Geoff.

A lot of the time, the band will want the recording to sound like they think they sound, not how they actually sound.

The engineer, though, has to listen to the band because if he strays too far from their ideal they'll give him the boot and get someone who does what they want.

In the meantime, the producer (should there be one, and if he's not actually a member of the band) will have his or her own idea, quite possibly based on what they consider to be more commercial aspects. They know what's what because they sold a shitload of records ...five years ago

Worse still is the producer who believes he has his own "signature" sound and treats every band/recording the same way because it sold a shitload of records ...five years ago.

The engineer, though, has to listen to the producer, or he'll give him the boot and get someone who does what they're told.

Engineers are not always without blame some of the time too, and sometimes (not always, because there are some brilliant engineers out there) SQ ends up being inversely proportionate to the amount of ego that shines out of the engineer's arse, which he believes to be sunshine.

N.B. Never let the band's wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, or husbands anywhere near the studio. The same goes for the band's manager. The poor bloody engineer is having to listen to quite enough morons as it is. Fuck off, Yoko!

It's a wonder anything decent ever gets made. :lol:

Yes, I'm just having a laugh, and there are brilliant producers, engineers, and even bands, out there, but there is, I believe, a grain of truth in most of the above.
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CN211276 (Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:50 pm) • Lindsayt (Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:27 am) • karatestu (Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:50 pm)
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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by Nearlymusical »

Yes - and as you imply even if its a digital sourced recording. I was recently listening to to DSOTM from a rip of my CD copy and found that "Money" was harsher on the ear than I remembered, so as as comparison I subscribed to a remastered version on qobuz - which actually was softer and I preferred - I also then did the same with Dolittle by the Pixies - just the standard version , and found that yes the Qobuz stream was a little less harsh. Cant say I want to do the same with most of the rest of my music, however it is worth having the option to try a different version or source.
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CN211276 (Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:50 pm)
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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by CN211276 »

I regularly find that Qobuz remasters are superior to my ripped CDs. This is a big argument in favour of subscribed streaming over the ownership of hard copies.
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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by karatestu »

I have some Jazz recordings from 60's and 70's that sound simply breathtaking. Blue Note especially. I have no idea how they mic'd things up but i suspect as simply as they could get away with. The tracks were probably done live with every body playing together , not multi tracked at totally different times.

Some of the Beatles stuff sounds excellent too, even though they used what studio devilry was available at the time. A lot of Cream's output from the late 60's sounds well. There is body to it, contrast, light and shade , dynamics and a sense of what kind of space was available.

The means to record things well was definitely there in the 60's and 70's. So why then do we have to suffer the mess that is some of the Jimi Hendrix catalogue, the first two Led Zep albums etc etc. Sounds like mush played through a pillow. Was there some don't care attitude for recording music which had some attitude? Or was it because it was recorded in a rush in the Rolling Stones mobile Recording studio ?

I must say that in my experience as a working drummer (over 15 years ago now) live music was often done very badly. The band would hire the cheapest PA company theg could find. PA company usually employed a range of knuckle dragging drop outs who's main interest was getting stoned or looking at the chicks at the bar. A race to the bottom.

My limited time spent in recording studio's emphasised what i had long since suspected. Its all about money and the making of such. Music altered to please the masses. I abandoned my job at the time to go make a record at the recording studio opposite Yorkshire TV in Leeds. Originally the band I was in paid to go there and record as many songs as we could in two days, all done live in as few takes as we could get away with. Sounded really good. In fact so good that the owners of the studio who also did graphics for Yorkshire TV offered us a recording contract.

We never captured that live demo sound again. The main songwriters ended up so far up their own arses. Retake after retake, change this bit, change that bit. Add to this the presence of a producer who just wanted to distress everything and compress the living shit out of everything. A disaster. I can't listen to that album but the live demo we originally did was glorious both in our collective playing and the recording.

I don't care what I play on my JBL Bluetooth speaker, all the music engages me equally. It's a slightly different matter with the more serious music replay equipment,. Music overdone in a certain area to impress the masses or underline an image statement can stick out like a sore thumb.
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CN211276 (Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:19 am) • Lindsayt (Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:11 pm)
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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by CN211276 »

In decades long past they did not have the technology to mess up the recording process. Many, but far from all, of these recordings have benefitted from remastering.
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Geoff.R.G
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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head Stu. Not only is music recorded to appeal to the masses but to sound “good” on low priced equipment. Clearly not all music but enough that good equipment can, and does, show up the failings. In the case of vinyl low cost cutting and over use of the stamping copies results in distortion and dissatisfaction.

Over use of compression is another problem, I was told, by a man who had run a recording studio, that if you can hear the effect of compression you are using too much. Some years later I completely agree with him.

There is more than one way your recordings can let you down.

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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by Grumpytim »

I think it was Fleetwood Mac that used to listen to the recording mixes on an AM car radio as they reasoned that was where the majority of their music would be heard. If that reasoning holds true today then I suppose current mixes are aimed at ear buds and blue tooth jobies.
I'm still surprised at the range of presentations of records in the 70's 80's from the really dynamic, to the absolutely dull and lifeless.

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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by Nearlymusical »

+/- Difference in recording volume between albums - ( thank God for remote control ) - is this part of the same thing ? Record high to attract attention on airplay
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Re: Is it your system or your recordings?

Unread post by CN211276 »

With the technology we have now what we hear on a decent system, on the whole, should be a lot better. As previously posted the two problems, which are interlinked, are compression and the goal of achieving the best sound on mass market reproduction equipment.
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Lindsayt (Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:26 pm)
Main System
NVA BMU, P90SA/A80s (latest spec), Cube 1s, TIS, TISC(LS7)
Sonore OpticalRendu, Chord Mscaler & Qutest, Sbooster PSs
Network Acoustics Eno, ifi iPurifier3, AQ JB FMJ, Cisco 2940 & 2960
DH Labs ethernet, BNC & USB cables, Farnells cat 8 ethernet cable

Second System
NVA P20/ A20, Cubettes, LS3, SSP, SC
Sonore MicroRendu, Chord Mojo 2 MCRU PSs, AQ Carbon USB cable & JB FMJ

Headphones
Grado SR325e/Chord Mojo, Beyerdynamic Avetho/AQ DF Colbat

RIP Doc

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