Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

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savvypaul
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Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by savvypaul »

A lot of chatter across different forums about this, at the moment. My take on it...

The only problem anyone will have with any type of review, is if they give it more weight than it deserves, or if they put two and two together and make five. Unfortunately, easy and quick 'answers' are often the most appealing.

A subjective review is just one person's opinion of an item, played in their system, in their room. How much experience and skill they have, whether their preferences align with your own, what their motivation is ... are things that you have to judge for yourself.

A measurements review, assuming it has been carried out correctly, is just a set of figures that may or may not give you some clues as to how the item might perform.

There are many variables involved, in both types of review, and then add the variables inherent in your own 'hi-fi circumstances'. We only end up with things like SINAD charts and 5 star awards because they superficially appear to circumvent the need to think for yourself.

Take the time to become your own expert...but you only need to be an expert in your own individual preference.
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CN211276 (Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:40 pm) • Lindsayt (Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:49 pm)
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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

The major problem with measurements is that they only measure what can be measured. Unfortunately as the saying goes "not everything that can be counted counts, not everything that counts can be counted". The power output of an amplifier is irrelevant, for a whole range of reasons, the current is more useful but also pretty irrelevant on its own. As to frequency response curves, we don't know what makes a speaker sound good or what measurements indicate that it does so, the graphs for speakers don't necessarily tell us anything.

Some measurements do actually matter, S/N ratio for example can tell us if noise might be a problem, obviously gain is important and cable capacitance is relevant with NVA amps where speaker cables are concerned.

My opinion is that, without knowing which measurements are relevant, most are just there for the sake of comparison.
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savvypaul (Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:23 pm) • CN211276 (Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:40 pm) • Lindsayt (Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:49 pm)

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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by CN211276 »

Battle lines have been drawn on forums on this issue, questioning measurements results in an instant ban on ASR. Both approaches are flawed.

Music is not a science and there is a lot more to its enjoyment, or lack of it, than can be shown on charts and graphs. Subjectivism is flawed because of all the variables. As well as a reviewer's individual preferences there is the interaction of components and the room. Added to this is the influence commercial interests can bring to bear. This was most pronounced during the flat earth era prior to the Internet when we were all led up the garden path to a greater or lesser extent. I think the popularity of objectivism today could be a reaction to this. What is now left of the magazines has not changed much.

The only way to accurately assess equipment is in your own system and room over a period of time, although initial impressions can be a guide. Comments on forums from those whose opinions you respect are an initial guide.
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savvypaul (Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:23 pm)
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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Listening to equipment play music, back to back with other equipment, same room, same volume give or take, is the worst way to select hi-fi. Apart from all the other methods.

When I've looked at the systems owned by people that claim to be arch-measurists, I've thought "Not for me... Too lacking in dynamic freedom... Too polite and too shut-in sounding... Unable to let its' hair down and belt out a tune..." Or "Just plain shit for the money."

OK a lot of the systems owned by subjectivists aren't for me. But some of them are.

In some AB demos the differences have been so significant that a clear winner was obvious from the first few seconds of B being played. With further listening just confirming that over and over again.
In some AB demos the differences have been small enough that I declare "Cheapest wins". As I can't be bothered with miniscule differences.

Maybe someone knows of an arch measurist that owns a system that does actually sound World Class?

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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Lindsayt wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 11:45 pm Listening to equipment play music, back to back with other equipment, same room, same volume give or take, is the worst way to select hi-fi. Apart from all the other methods.

When I've looked at the systems owned by people that claim to be arch-measurists, I've thought "Not for me... Too lacking in dynamic freedom... Too polite and too shut-in sounding... Unable to let its' hair down and belt out a tune..." Or "Just plain shit for the money."

OK a lot of the systems owned by subjectivists aren't for me. But some of them are.

In some AB demos the differences have been so significant that a clear winner was obvious from the first few seconds of B being played. With further listening just confirming that over and over again.
In some AB demos the differences have been small enough that I declare "Cheapest wins". As I can't be bothered with miniscule differences.

Maybe someone knows of an arch measurist that owns a system that does actually sound World Class?
For me, one difficulty is that the level at which a system comes alive can be fairly high. Listening at a neighbour friendly level can really constrain the sound. On the other hand, listening at a more realistic level can sound much better, obviously there’s also too loud.

That said, Churchill was right about both democracy and AB comparisons.
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Lindsayt (Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:49 pm)

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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by slinger »

But I don't care if my amp makes the music sound as flat as a witch's tit, and the speakers are all shouty, just look at those beautiful numbers. :ugeek:
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Lindsayt (Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:40 pm)
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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by Lindsayt »

The home is the most important component in the hi-fi system.
With the most important specification being noise bleed to the nearest neighbouring property.
Which could be measured scientifically. But never is.

I'd rather listen to a wisely put together cheap as chips sub £150 system in a detached house with good separation to the neighbours.
Than a World Class system in a block of modern flats.

Due to the different volume levels I can listen at.

With this being part of the reason I'm not into small differences. If 2 components are so close that the one played at a quarter of a notch higher volume sounds better, then just go with the cheaper option and turn it up that quarter of a notch.
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CN211276 (Thu Jan 16, 2025 4:22 pm) • tweet_my_ribbon (Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:48 pm)

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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by CN211276 »

Lindsayt wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:48 pm The home is the most important component in the hi-fi system.
With the most important specification being noise bleed to the nearest neighbouring property.
Which could be measured scientifically. But never is.

I'd rather listen to a wisely put together cheap as chips sub £150 system in a detached house with good separation to the neighbours.
Than a World Class system in a block of modern flats.

Due to the different volume levels I can listen at.

With this being part of the reason I'm not into small differences. If 2 components are so close that the one played at a quarter of a notch higher volume sounds better, then just go with the cheaper option and turn it up that quarter of a notch.
A detached house was a major consideration when we down sized nearly ten years ago. I do like to crank it up a bit when my other half is out. But the systems still sound good at low volume. Was in a semi detached previously and neighbours were a consideration. Although I never turned it up really loud we were unfortunate to have a couple from hell at one time who complained about music at low volume, even my wife's who is not a fan of heavy rock. Other issues developed and things got very, very nasty with police and solicitors. They moved away in the end very much out of pocket as a result of the aggro they caused.
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Lindsayt (Thu Jan 16, 2025 10:41 pm)
Main System
NVA BMU, P90SA/A80s (latest spec), Cube 1s, TIS, TISC(LS7)
Sonore OpticalRendu, Chord Mscaler & Qutest, Sbooster PSs
Network Acoustics Eno, ifi iPurifier3, AQ JB FMJ, Cisco 2940 & 2960
DH Labs ethernet, BNC & USB cables, Lindy cat 6 US ethernet cable

Second System
NVA P20/ A20, Cubettes, LS3, TIS, SSP
Sonore MicroRendu, Chord Mojo 2 MCRU PSs, AQ Carbon USB cable & JB FMJ

Headphones
Grado SR325e/Chord Mojo, Beyerdynamic Avetho/Questyle M12i

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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

Hifi is a solipsistic hobby , so ultimately what you like is all that counts.

However , some way of assessment beyond I like it is tremendously useful. Unfortunately , the measurements we have are basic and are akin to measuring football ability by height.

We are thus left with the chaos we have and those that shout there opinions loudest are heard.

My way of navigating this minefield was to build my own. Its amazing what you won't accept anymore when you build stuff.
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Lindsayt (Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:42 pm)

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Re: Subjective Reviews vs Measurements

Unread post by Geoff.R.G »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:59 pm Hifi is a solipsistic hobby , so ultimately what you like is all that counts.

However , some way of assessment beyond I like it is tremendously useful. Unfortunately , the measurements we have are basic and are akin to measuring football ability by height.

We are thus left with the chaos we have and those that shout there opinions loudest are heard.

My way of navigating this minefield was to build my own. Its amazing what you won't accept anymore when you build stuff.
I like that! Measuring football ability by measuring height is a very good comparison, although “measuring football ability” is about as difficult as measuring sound quality. In other words can it actually be done at all?

Yes absolutely building kit is a great way of finding out what works.
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Lindsayt (Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:42 pm)

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