It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

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savvypaul
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by savvypaul »

You don't have to.
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by savvypaul »

Stemcor1990 wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:50 pm Unless I am mistaken, we currently live in a democracy.

In a democracy, the will of the majority should prevail. So why is brexit so problematic ? I think that the answer lies in the fact that the referendum question was flawed. Cameron et al did not do their homework. Correct me if I am wrong but the EU leaving document is a few lines and no structure for an exit. I suspect that nobody in the EU ever thought that a nation would leave so no need to negotiate the exit conditions when a new member joins. After all, who wants to talk about leaving when you are joining ?

So, here’s my compromise :

Revoke article 50, negotiate the terms of a withdrawal and publish them in full. At the same time, make it clear to the public what leaving without a deal means. Once this has been done, hold a referendum with the following conditions :

If a majority elect to revoke, we revoke and stay. If the sum of “leave with a deal” and “leave without a deal” is the majority then we leave. The terms of leaving are the leaving mechanism which receives the greatest number of votes.
I largely follow the logic...but would you really countenance leaving without a deal on the say so of as low as 26% of those who voted?

The funny thing is that this is just the withdrawal phase...the long term arrangements have got to be agreed, next.
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

We can't leave without a deal.

We would be plunged in to chaos.

Its why leaving is and always was a con.

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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by savvypaul »

And, yet, we cant not leave.

Democracy would be plunged into chaos.
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

We leave with a deal. Tough shit Boris.

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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by savvypaul »

And our elected representatives have worked together to legislate such an outcome.

Just got to find a deal that a majority of MPs will vote through.

Theresa May's withdrawal agreement, anyone?
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by Classicrock »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:31 pm We can't leave without a deal.

We would be plunged in to chaos.

Its why leaving is and always was a con.
It was not a con. How? Cameron justified the referendum by saying there would have to be one eventually. If you join a club you should be able to leave otherwise you have no independence. I voted in a previous referendum to join the common market. The Maastricht treaty changed all that to a union that was a path to a united states of Europe. The people weren't consulted. This was John Major's baby and is why he is sticking his oar in now. There should have been a referendum on Maastricht and likely that would have been rejected and would have been vetoed. Of course the Eu would probably try and force us to have that over and over again. If we were still in a common market the referendum result would have been different. The idea you can't leave just makes half the country more determined to leave. I would agree this relationship is very difficult to unravel when the EU has so many red lines. Of course they want to make it impossible so no other country leaves! If we stay I'm sure the situation will be worse than before because they will seek to punish and diminish us and turn us into a satellite state of Germany and France.

I think unless they get a deal soon the opportunity for compromise will have gone and it can't leave us worse of than being a member for enough MPs to accept it. The question is that if this does not happen is there any point in voting? Leave have the moral high ground because they have the majority in the referendum. I would have accepted if the vote went the other way. Govt agreed to abide by the decision at the time so advisory in name only. Anyway it's been changed into a party political battle on one level while there are splits in the main parties themselves. May didn't help because her negotiations were handled incompetently by civil servants who wanted to stay. This proved that trying to please everyone doesn't work. You can only compromise so far and some have to be left unhappy. There isn't a compromise that will please everyone but maybe one that gets a small majority. Obviously staying (real or virtual) which is opposite of the vote isn't compromise
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by SteveTheShadow »

You’re not one of us.
‘E’s different.
Yeah. Kick ‘im in lads
Come ‘ere you,
Grab ‘is arms hold ‘im.
Remain or leave!
I said remain or leave !
I’ll give you to the count of three to answer. REMAIN OR F***ING LEAVE!
Right you miserable little.....
DON’T LOOK AT IT. I SAID DON’T LOOK AT IT!.......THINK MAN!
PUT THE PIPE DOWN, LET HIM GO AND TAKE A STEP BACK!
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Last edited by SteveTheShadow on Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:27 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by savvypaul »

Classicrock wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:06 pm
Daniel Quinn wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:31 pm We can't leave without a deal.

We would be plunged in to chaos.

Its why leaving is and always was a con.
It was not a con. How? Cameron justified the referendum by saying there would have to be one eventually. If you join a club you should be able to leave otherwise you have no independence. I voted in a previous referendum to join the common market. The Maastricht treaty changed all that to a union that was a path to a united states of Europe. The people weren't consulted. This was John Major's baby and is why he is sticking his oar in now. There should have been a referendum on Maastricht and likely that would have been rejected and would have been vetoed. Of course the Eu would probably try and force us to have that over and over again. If we were still in a common market the referendum result would have been different. The idea you can't leave just makes half the country more determined to leave. I would agree this relationship is very difficult to unravel when the EU has so many red lines. Of course they want to make it impossible so no other country leaves! If we stay I'm sure the situation will be worse than before because they will seek to punish and diminish us and turn us into a satellite state of Germany and France.

I think unless they get a deal soon the opportunity for compromise will have gone and it can't leave us worse of than being a member for enough MPs to accept it. The question is that if this does not happen is there any point in voting? Leave have the moral high ground because they have the majority in the referendum. I would have accepted if the vote went the other way. Govt agreed to abide by the decision at the time so advisory in name only. Anyway it's been changed into a party political battle on one level while there are splits in the main parties themselves. May didn't help because her negotiations were handled incompetently by civil servants who wanted to stay. This proved that trying to please everyone doesn't work. You can only compromise so far and some have to be left unhappy. There isn't a compromise that will please everyone but maybe one that gets a small majority. Obviously staying (real or virtual) which is opposite of the vote isn't compromise
During the referendum campaign, Johnson said there was no way we would leave without a deal. Davis said doing a deal would take half an hour. Fox said it would be the easiest deal in history.

They have let you down, haven't they?
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Re: It's time for EVERYONE to compromise...

Unread post by montechristo358 »

There was never going to be a deal if they think they can make us stay. Leaving without a deal is not a forever decicion.

There will be a deal in a flash once we've gone
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