Greece

[Daniel Quinn]

Both your responses are contradicted by empirical evidence and facts .

All sociites are not the same .

different ways of organisiign socities and employment exist . different firms have more egalitarian wages structure .

Alas you find yourself advocating a philosphy of we are all animals and this is as good as it gets . It is a very nihilistic utilitarian approach and your comment that we are baboons is daft .

i have a overwhelming desire to come to macclesfied with a hammer and pound some sense in to your right wing skull , i will not be doing it as I am a human being with a conscience and an ability to think .

[Macca]

You won't find me in Macclesfield, I can't afford to live there

I had a long discussion along similar lines with two colleagues whilst I was on holiday earlier in the year. After several hours we all agreed that pretty much all of the world's problems boil down to the fact that people are dicks.

I don't think that changing societal or economic factors will ever change this fundemental.

it is the nature of man that we tend to focus on approaches to problems/issues that mirror our personalities, experiences and trainings. So presented with any issue a doctor will propose a medical solution, a soldier a military solution, a lawyer a legislative solution and so forth. However as a philosopher I tend to take a more abstract view. Some find this approach to be lacking in emotion/compassion. So be it. A hammer won't change that.

I'm interested in the fact that you consider humans to be better/superior to animals. I understand that point of view from a religous person but I am guessing you are not religous so I would like to know what you base your optimistic view of humanity on?

[Daniel Quinn]

I have answered that question . It is because we have language .

if I go up to a sheep and ask it why i should not eat it , it will go baa baa and follow me to the chopping board .

Language gives rise to a discursive memory and ability to think about yourself and the world and your place within it . It also at the same time influences the person you become in ways we do not yet fully understand . Baby DQ is just beginning to realise what he says effects what happens, how he feels about and what can be done and this as profound consequences on his development as a human . He starts behaving more like a human and less like a feral animal .

language allows you to understand yourself and your world and therefore change it, the better your vocabulary and knowledge about the world the more you are able to understand it and change it .

lawyers ,doctors , rocket scientists are nothing more than humans with a better vocabulary ,language and knowledge of their specific subject .

If you wish to label most of the world dicks , you are going to need a definition of what a dick is

[Macca]

I'd go along with the Team America analogy of dicks, pussies and assholes.

Other animals have language, they certainly vocalise to communicate. Our language is more sophisticated and allows us to address higher concepts but it is still a piss-poor way of communicating ideas because the meaning of words is far too elastic. To have a hope of communicating high concepts we must first define exactyl what we mean by the words we are using. Not an easy task. As we saw in this thread earlier whilst trying to define 'capitalism'.

What language does do is enable us to have an internal dialogue which means we are able to construct an abstract concept of the outside world within our own minds. We then use this construct to make decisisons about real world actions, but the accuracy of the construct will determine how rational our decisions are. Hence baby DQ becomes less of a feral creature as he expands his construct.

The problem is that beyond the simple our constructs can vary wildly from reality. For some the construct has no reality at all, hence some people exhibit bizarre behaviour even in everyday life.


I suspect some lower animals (cats for example) do have a rudimentry internal dialogue but not the same as our own,.

I can't offer evidence that most people are dicks. Just that you only see the reality of a person when they are in a pressure situation, where life or liberty is threatened. That is when people you thought were sound can really surprise you. And you can really surprise yourself. I thought I was not a dick for a long time. I was wrong.

[Daniel Quinn]

the point about language is its ability to change you and the world .

you can hit a snooker ball a million times it will let you hit it two million times.

you can hit a cat , it will try and scratch you and run away .

you can hit a human , he can say please do not hit me again and lets live in harmony because if you do not I will wait to you are a sleep and kill you .

This are simplified examples to highligh that the way we live is elastic nothing is determined or inevitable , our society is the outcome of distinct distribution of power and influence not some innate human nature , self interest , survival of the fittest clap trap .

[_D_S_J_R_]

Cats lower animals???



Wash your mouth out Macca. They're FAR higher than us, telepathic (opinion, not scientific fact obviously) and are able to express an opinion with just a look... They come into our lives to give comfort if we deserve it and let us know in no uncertain terms that WE are the barbaric inferior species that is merely fit for servitude to them

My (old spirit) friend Titchpuss, his cohort Ollie and I could have conversations in total silence and I desperately miss their counsel and unconditional friendship on a daily basis. NEVER could I regard them as inferior animals or 'lower' than us - so there !

No idea what all this has to do with Greece though

[Neilardo]

This has been a fascinating discussion so far thanks DQ & Macca. Some of it's a bit over my head TBH .

I have answered that question . It is because we have language .

if I go up to a sheep and ask it why i should not eat it , it will go baa baa and follow me to the chopping board .

Language gives rise to a discursive memory and ability to think about yourself and the world and your place within it . It also at the same time influences the person you become in ways we do not yet fully understand . Baby DQ is just beginning to realise what he says effects what happens, how he feels about and what can be done and this as profound consequences on his development as a human . He starts behaving more like a human and less like a feral animal .

language allows you to understand yourself and your world and therefore change it, the better your vocabulary and knowledge about the world the more you are able to understand it and change it .

lawyers ,doctors , rocket scientists are nothing more than humans with a better vocabulary ,language and knowledge of their specific subject .

If you wish to label most of the world dicks , you are going to need a definition of what a dick is

However I'm bang along side this answer. If anybody's interested there's a great book called "the third chimpanzee" by Jared Diamond. It argues that for all meaningful intents and purposes we're genetically identical to chimps and bonobos (and neanderthals for that matter). The big leap forwards is a miniscule mutation (possibly) to our vocal chords that had enabled us to go from 6-8 phonemes (plus body language) to approx 50 phonemes allowing us as modern human being to develop language and intelligence (possibly in that order I'm no expert )

Other animals have language, they certainly vocalise to communicate. Our language is more sophisticated and allows us to address higher concepts but it is still a piss-poor way of communicating ideas because the meaning of words is far too elastic. To have a hope of communicating high concepts we must first define exactyl what we mean by the words we are using. Not an easy task. As we saw in this thread earlier whilst trying to define 'capitalism'.

Interestingly (to me anyway) Science is a tool for introducing precision to language. Sciences primary function is not about deciding what is true or not, tho this is often what happens often erroneously , sometimes intentionally . Science to me is simply a mechanism to enable the precise communication of ideas.

And finally (from me) I think that your definition and your opinion on the ubiquity of dicks reflects poorly on the circles in which you mix Macca . Most of the people I meet are kind, genuine, amazing. The dicks do exist but are the exceptions .

[Macca]

Dave DSJR - you are right of course about the cats. I miss mine terribly.

Neil - re 'dicks' I know what you are saying but I di point out that you only discover that those kind genuine amazing people have the capacity to be dicks when you put them in a serious pressure situation. I am sure a lot of people who have led lives far more normal than I have never ran into those situations.

People's high opinions of themselves and their integrity, loyalty, courage and honour turn out to be illusory in those situations. Not always, but for the vast majority. Not having experienced this people think they are 100% virtuous and therefore justified in judging others. It is the plague of the 21st century.

I don't know who said this but it is (true and funny) - Now it is 2015 they should remake Back To The Future 2 but replace the hoverboards and flying cars with everyone walking about with a smart phone stuck to their faces being offended by everything.

[Daniel Quinn]

Neil - re 'dicks' I know what you are saying but I di point out that you only discover that those kind genuine amazing people have the capacity to be dicks when you put them in a serious pressure situation. I am sure a lot of people who have led lives far more normal than I have never ran into those situations.People's high opinions of themselves and their integrity, loyalty, courage and honour turn out to be illusory in those situations. Not always, but for the vast majority. Not having experienced this people think they are 100% virtuous and therefore justified in judging others. It is the plague of the 21st century.

Integrity ,honour , loyality these are not "things" like a rock is a thing , they are social constructs defined and determined by social relations.

to simplify Marx theory of historical materailism , what it is to be human is not set in stone , it is malleable and it is the materiel conditions that determine humans . You can not seperate who we are at this particular moment of our history from the organisation of our production and reproduction .

Thus loyalty is not a human conditionm nor is it one thing or simply defined , it is an aspect of social relationships and it is determined not by humans in themselves but by social relations .

[Macca]

Completely agree. How loyal we are - for example - will be a function of our personalities, and our personalities are created entirely from external influences like the society we live in and the individuals we have contact with. We don't get to choose how loyal we are anymore than we get to choose whether or not we like beetroot.

I'm sure if you did a survey though, asking people 'how loyal are you to your friends' on a 1-10 scale most would give a high number and many would say 10. And they firmly believe it and the chances are that belief will never be tested.

Your theory seems to be that the society creates the people, that is that a better society (whatever that entails) would produce better people i.e less dicks or people with less capacity to be dicks.

That would seem logical except it assumes that society creates people and not the other way around. And it is the other way around.