HiFi Subjectivist ¦ Audio Forum ¦ NVA User Group

savvypaul wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:24 pm

DaveyTed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:12 pm For a hifi newcomer to read comments saying their turntable, or whatever, is crap or rubbish is hardly constructive.

You would prefer that experienced listeners do not proffer opinions based on what they have heard?

That’s actually a difficult one. If someone were to turn up here having bought, for example, an LP12 on the recommendation of a trusted friend I can understand that they might be put off by the prevailing attitude to that turntable. It would be calling into question the integrity of the friend and the hearing of the new member. On the other hand, if we don’t mention that we find a product flawed, especially if that is the general consensus, what does that say about our integrity?

On balance I think it preferable to gently suggest auditioning something “better”, with an explanation as to why, than to keep silent. I know that I would be unhappy to hear that I had bought a dud but even more so if nobody was prepared to tell me for fear of causing offence.

To answer savvypaul
It's great to see opinions voiced. What I hope to see is constructive comment - not telling someone, directly or indirectly, they've bought a piece of crap. That's demoralising for someone who's spent what for them could be a lot of money.

DaveyTed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:41 pm To answer savvypaul
It's great to see opinions voiced. What I hope to see is constructive comment - not telling someone, directly or indirectly, they've bought a piece of crap. That's demoralising for someone who's spent what for them could be a lot of money.

I agree, but that isn't the same as not commenting.

DaveyTed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:41 pm To answer savvypaul
It's great to see opinions voiced. What I hope to see is constructive comment - not telling someone, directly or indirectly, they've bought a piece of crap. That's demoralising for someone who's spent what for them could be a lot of money.

It really is great to see different opinions voiced. And, some opinions will be the opposite of your own. And, some of those opinions will be expressed in ways that may not be overflowing with the milk of human kindness. That is the internet. With regards to this forum, specifically, everyone is free to express their opinion about hi-fi. As long as criticism is not aimed at the person, it is fine - play the ball, not the man.

When I first spoke to Richard about trying NVA amps and speakers, I owned a Sugden amp and Harbeth speakers. I asked, if I were going to change one now and one later, should I try his amps first or his speakers. More or less word for word, he replied...I have a bit of a soft spot for the Sugden but I would put the Harbeths on the nearest bonfire, so try my speakers first. If I'd chosen to take offence (I'm a believer that no one can give you offence, you can only choose to take offence) over his comment about the speakers I'd spent £1600 on just a few years beforehand, I'd have missed out on a great opportunity to further my knowledge, experience and musical enjoyment. He later explained that the Harbeths were stuffed full of both stuffing and a very complex crossover that ferked up phase and killed the music. I didn't feel at all demoralised when he sold me a secondhand set of Cube 1s and I sold the Harbeths quickly and pocketed the difference.

My advice is to keep an open mind, think about the experience and motivation of people who are giving out advice around the internet, and then use your own ears. Become your own expert.

savvypaul wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:40 pm

My advice is to keep an open mind, think about the experience and motivation of people who are giving out advice around the internet, and then use your own ears. Become your own expert.

Very true. I was convinced that the heavy metal stands with blutac I had been using for over twenty years provided the best speaker support and this might well have been the case with the p&s designs I had used for most of this time. It was only this year, through advice on this forum, that I started to have doubts about the appropriateness of this approach for Cubes. After all they were sounding very good and not masking improvements I had made to the source. I eventually decided to give the IsoPucks I was using on the cupboard supported second system a try and the improvement was immediately noticeable. The coupling had definitely been getting in the way of the music. I immediately ordered oak stands to complete the decoupling and they brought about a similar level of improvement. Have to admit that I was not getting the best out of Cubes for nearly five years. The moral is that no matter how good your system sounds take notice of advice from those whose opinions you respect and let your ears decide.

Assuming I've asked for help on a forum brimming with self-declared experts:-

"That's a piece of shit mate". - Not acceptable to me. It's just pure ignorance without some justification, illumination, and amplification (pun not intended).

"That's a piece of shit mate, and I'll tell you why I say that..." - Acceptable.

slinger wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:26 am Assuming I've asked for help on a forum brimming with self-declared experts:-

"That's a piece of shit mate". - Not acceptable to me. It's just pure ignorance without some justification, illumination, and amplification (pun not intended).

"That's a piece of shit mate, and I'll tell you why I say that..." - Acceptable.

What grinds my gears more than someone saying "That's a piece of shit" is when they say "This is awesome" when it's not.

Especially when they take the weakest sonic aspect of the item and claim it's good to great in that area.

And double especially when I know they've heard something better.

Lindsayt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:45 am
What grinds my gears more than someone saying "That's a piece of shit" is when they say "This is awesome" when it's not.

Especially when they take the weakest sonic aspect of the item and claim it's good to great in that area.

And double especially when I know they've heard something better.

This is so very common. There is so much praise heaped on equipment which is either shite or a rip off. As I do not get to hear much equipment I go on the opinions of those I respect. I have heard WAF speakers though and have first hand experience of how shite they sound. Yet there are those who claim that those small drivers produce remarkable bass. The power of marketing.

Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:24 pm

Discussing this with nick, mark, and others on audio talk, my 'clean' meant transparent to nick.

What i mean by this is that all parts of a song, the voice, the kickdrum, the piano, whatever, are all there in their own space, they are all where they should be. they dont bleed into each other, they start and stop clearly and easily.
If the detail is there its there
That you can lock on to any individual part of a performance easily and follow it. That you can lock onto different parts one after the other without having to strain, and they are all clearly defined.
That you can pick out things that are deeper in the mix just as easily as things that are front and centre.
That harmonics from say a plucked double bass string dont get swamped by other things going on, the decay on one cymbal isnt swamped by hits on other cymbals.

And that it is easy to hear these things without concentrating really hard to.

I find personally that when i have this, something clicks and i get lost in what im listening to, its all one piece, but if i dont, it starts to get on my nerves because i feel that someting fundamental is missing and it is disjointed

I dont know if that makes sense.

This certainly makes sense to me and I would add the reproduction of dynamics. The big provisor is the quality of the recording and mastering. A transparant system will show when this is of a high standard or not so good.

CN211276 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:33 am The big provisor is the quality of the recording and mastering. A transparant system will show when this is of a high standard or not so good.

I have often said that what you hear is what the mastering engineer wants you to hear. Ideally what he/she wants is what the band played. The problem is that you have to listen to a lot of music to be sure that it is the recording that is below par and not your system.

With vinyl the mastering can be top notch but if the stamper is worn the end product won’t reflect that. The quality of the raw vinyl can, apparently, affect the reproduction too.

Do you ever feel like chucking it all in and taking up knitting?