I came across warnings on the web of NOT powering Klipsch speakers with Class D amps - this combination is way too bright and edgy! Most of my equipment tends to be on the warm-sounding side, so a bit of extra clarity is not an issue. Definitely a case of matching up components for the best result, though.DaveyTed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:07 pm Re the "fatiguing" sound of class D amps:
I use a small class d amp to power a pair of Klipsch speakers for TV sound. Okay for TV but not good for audio only. Connecting my Cesti MB speakers in place of the Klipschs is a revelation - much smoother. Putting the Klipschs together with NVA is another revelation - much brighter and more involving.
So in my experience speaker matching is possibly the answer to class D fatigue. Or could it just be the reduced treble from the single driver Cesti's?
Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
- These users thanked the author Fretless for the post (total 2):
- DaveyTed (Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:37 pm) • George Hincapie (Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:43 pm)
Upstairs:
VinylPro-Ject 1.2 + Grado Sig Jr + Cambridge Alva Duo
DigiVolumio PC + Kiss DP-500 + Sabaj A20d
NVA: Cube2 - SSP - LS6+ Sabaj A10a {x2)
Little Bear MC2 + AQ NightHawk
Downstairs:
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DigiDenafrips Ares II + Volumio PC + Cambridge CXC
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HP: Allo DigiOne + Sabaj A10d + AQ NightOwl
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
These class d amps are something i keep looking at periodically. Reason being that the f5 costs quite abit to run being an absolute room heater of an amp. The a20 i have is not the best choice for the big fane speakers because they are so efficient at 101db. A little bit of volume control movement and you will have the windows out.
The a20 has about the same power as the f5 at around 25w, but far too much gain for them. I did bodge my way around that somewhat by upping the feedback, putting a shunted pot in the p20 and adding a potential divider to the output to bin off some voltage, but its not ideal.
So my niche need is for a power efficient, low gain power amp, at odds with the established norm of medium to high output power and medium to high gain to work with mass market speakers.
Wonder if there is a low gain low power class d amp out there somewhere that would fit the bill.
Try out sounding the f5 though
The a20 has about the same power as the f5 at around 25w, but far too much gain for them. I did bodge my way around that somewhat by upping the feedback, putting a shunted pot in the p20 and adding a potential divider to the output to bin off some voltage, but its not ideal.
So my niche need is for a power efficient, low gain power amp, at odds with the established norm of medium to high output power and medium to high gain to work with mass market speakers.
Wonder if there is a low gain low power class d amp out there somewhere that would fit the bill.
Try out sounding the f5 though
Analogue: oracle delphi sme 309, jbe series 3 cx unipivot dv20x2l, roksan xerxes tabriz vm750, jvc ql-y5f rigb at440, jvc ql-y3f vm750, lenco 75, technics sl150
Phono stages: cole lcr, benedict audio hothead
Digital: cyrus cd7, wiim mini x2, topping e30, jds labs el dac 2+
Amplification: nelson pass b1, nelson pass f5
Speakers: 15" fane aperiodic wardrobes
Cans: myryad z40, hifiman sundara + deva, fostex t50rp, sennheiser momentum on ear +over ear, b&w p5 and p7
Phono stages: cole lcr, benedict audio hothead
Digital: cyrus cd7, wiim mini x2, topping e30, jds labs el dac 2+
Amplification: nelson pass b1, nelson pass f5
Speakers: 15" fane aperiodic wardrobes
Cans: myryad z40, hifiman sundara + deva, fostex t50rp, sennheiser momentum on ear +over ear, b&w p5 and p7
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
Take me to the bridge ...
- These users thanked the author Fretless for the post (total 4):
- George Hincapie (Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:34 pm) • Grumpytim (Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:10 pm) • slinger (Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:46 pm) • antonio66 (Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:51 am)
Upstairs:
VinylPro-Ject 1.2 + Grado Sig Jr + Cambridge Alva Duo
DigiVolumio PC + Kiss DP-500 + Sabaj A20d
NVA: Cube2 - SSP - LS6+ Sabaj A10a {x2)
Little Bear MC2 + AQ NightHawk
Downstairs:
VinylLogic DM101 + Syrinx LE1 + Grado Sig MCX
DigiDenafrips Ares II + Volumio PC + Cambridge CXC
NVA: P50 & PSU - BMUAiyima A07 MAX + Arcam One
HP: Allo DigiOne + Sabaj A10d + AQ NightOwl
Office: Allo DigiOne SIG + SMSL M300se + Douk G4 (x2)
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
I don't know the impedance of your Fanes but A Temple Audio Bantam Gold is quoted at 23 watts into 4 ohms so if the Fanes are 8 ohm the Bantam would only supply around 12 watts.Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:58 pm These class d amps are something i keep looking at periodically. Reason being that the f5 costs quite abit to run being an absolute room heater of an amp. The a20 i have is not the best choice for the big fane speakers because they are so efficient at 101db. A little bit of volume control movement and you will have the windows out.
The a20 has about the same power as the f5 at around 25w, but far too much gain for them. I did bodge my way around that somewhat by upping the feedback, putting a shunted pot in the p20 and adding a potential divider to the output to bin off some voltage, but its not ideal.
So my niche need is for a power efficient, low gain power amp, at odds with the established norm of medium to high output power and medium to high gain to work with mass market speakers.
Wonder if there is a low gain low power class d amp out there somewhere that would fit the bill.
Try out sounding the f5 though
There are many copies of the original low power Tripath chipped amps around but quality could be dubious.
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
Low power and Class D don’t usually come in the same package.Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:58 pm These class d amps are something i keep looking at periodically. Reason being that the f5 costs quite abit to run being an absolute room heater of an amp. The a20 i have is not the best choice for the big fane speakers because they are so efficient at 101db. A little bit of volume control movement and you will have the windows out.
The a20 has about the same power as the f5 at around 25w, but far too much gain for them. I did bodge my way around that somewhat by upping the feedback, putting a shunted pot in the p20 and adding a potential divider to the output to bin off some voltage, but its not ideal.
So my niche need is for a power efficient, low gain power amp, at odds with the established norm of medium to high output power and medium to high gain to work with mass market speakers.
Wonder if there is a low gain low power class d amp out there somewhere that would fit the bill.
Try out sounding the f5 though
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
Some people are so cruel ....
... but I have new amps to play with!
... but I have new amps to play with!
Upstairs:
VinylPro-Ject 1.2 + Grado Sig Jr + Cambridge Alva Duo
DigiVolumio PC + Kiss DP-500 + Sabaj A20d
NVA: Cube2 - SSP - LS6+ Sabaj A10a {x2)
Little Bear MC2 + AQ NightHawk
Downstairs:
VinylLogic DM101 + Syrinx LE1 + Grado Sig MCX
DigiDenafrips Ares II + Volumio PC + Cambridge CXC
NVA: P50 & PSU - BMUAiyima A07 MAX + Arcam One
HP: Allo DigiOne + Sabaj A10d + AQ NightOwl
Office: Allo DigiOne SIG + SMSL M300se + Douk G4 (x2)
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- Fretless
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Re: Curiosity gets the better of me (again)
It is obvious that Class D is a devisive topic here in the cloisters of the initiated disciples of The Church of True HIFI, where the ancient mysteries of valves and Class A remain holy relics and new technologies are deemed heathen and unworthy. I must confess a certain degree of schizophrenia myself; the Gear-geek side of me is overjoyed with these new toys and is loving every second, the inner-Audiophile is behaving in a slightly snooty way and is not easily convinced of the musicality of these Sci-Fi-styled creations.
Lets have a look at the object in question, the Sabaj A10a 2022. Firstly, what you get is a very cheap (160 quid at Amazon) little stereo amp with single input and a minimalist front featuring a huge on/off switch and a chunky volume knob. Inside there is a new-generation Class D processing chip from Germany called the Infineon MA5332M. However things get more complicated on the back :
The left-hand side on the picture shows 4 little switches and a small silver knob. These select 1) Bluetooth or Line input, 2) straight signal or roll-off, 3) stereo/bridged mode 4) RCA or XLR input. Then you see that this is a versatile unit designed with A/V applications in mind; for instance you can hook up one of these in stereo mode to a TV and a second A10a in bridged mode driving a passive subwoofer (that is where the silver roll-off knob comes in). For surround installations you can implement one A10a per channel and each can be adjusted for balance with its own volume pot. Handy.
Due to its small footprint and low price this is also an ideal stereo starter amp or one for use in a second system where you just need background or party (it goes loud!) sounds. But, then the burning question, does it sound any good?
Beginning with a single amp in stereo mode, I was impressed by the muscle and clarity of the A10a, Up-front, sharp detail, tactile & punchy bass. Fun, certainly, Hifi? Well, yes, in a way, Audiophile? No, lacking too much in depth and subtlety. The stereo field is certainly nicely-defined with a wide soundstage and oodles of detail, it improved as well when I swapped in the DacMagic DAC as a source, the softer, rounder sound balancing well with the forward character of the amp.
Then, amp 2, bridge mode.
For only 320 pounds you get a pair of hefty little monoblocks, Sabaj make another version called the A20a which takes the same chassis but increases the output to a higher level. Oomph. So, we have here a powerhouse amplifier setup, nice that both units have a volume pot as that makes balance adjustment possible, something I didn't have up to now. Those of us who use digital, chip-based audio equipment know that warming-up and running-in make a significant difference to the eventual sound quality and I have had the second amp for less than 24 hours. Leaving the whole setup on overnight, everything was nicely warmed-through (despite -7C outside) this morning and I have just had a short but critical listen.
Tangerine Dream sound amazing through these! No doubt about it. Every bleep, bloop and phase-effect is presented with astonishing sharpness. The wide soundstage is more definitively-defined than I can ever remember with other amplifiers. The sound isn't excessively bright but it is on the borderline sometimes. Complex passages just lack a tiny bit of control and there is an overall 'artificial' sheen to the character that makes the music come across as a touch 'stiff'. This isn't a problem with synth/EM at all, but how about real people playing real instruments? Not bad, actually, I gave Joni Mitchell's wonderful live 'Miles of Aisles' a spin and that worked rather well, being a bass-player I always try to follow bass-lines and the Sabaj amps present those on a plate. Easy to feel exactly what the bassist is doing in this great live-band. And Joni singing, playing piano and guitar, everything is vivid, technicolour sound. No holding back on detail - I have never been able to pick out some audience comments before now, and I could clearly make out what folks were shouting to Joni. As I said, this Hifi-geek is dead chuffed.
Subtlety, a sense of 3D depth and relaxed involvement. These are qualities that the inner-Audiophile (the snob!) still misses and has his reservations about. The question is, will a period of burn-in bring out more of those qualities in the Sabaj A10a? It can take weeks of use for audio gear to really come on song and I have little experience of Class D and cannot say for sure - but will see and hear this for myself.
For the moment, however, I am really, truly impressed.
Lets have a look at the object in question, the Sabaj A10a 2022. Firstly, what you get is a very cheap (160 quid at Amazon) little stereo amp with single input and a minimalist front featuring a huge on/off switch and a chunky volume knob. Inside there is a new-generation Class D processing chip from Germany called the Infineon MA5332M. However things get more complicated on the back :
The left-hand side on the picture shows 4 little switches and a small silver knob. These select 1) Bluetooth or Line input, 2) straight signal or roll-off, 3) stereo/bridged mode 4) RCA or XLR input. Then you see that this is a versatile unit designed with A/V applications in mind; for instance you can hook up one of these in stereo mode to a TV and a second A10a in bridged mode driving a passive subwoofer (that is where the silver roll-off knob comes in). For surround installations you can implement one A10a per channel and each can be adjusted for balance with its own volume pot. Handy.
Due to its small footprint and low price this is also an ideal stereo starter amp or one for use in a second system where you just need background or party (it goes loud!) sounds. But, then the burning question, does it sound any good?
Beginning with a single amp in stereo mode, I was impressed by the muscle and clarity of the A10a, Up-front, sharp detail, tactile & punchy bass. Fun, certainly, Hifi? Well, yes, in a way, Audiophile? No, lacking too much in depth and subtlety. The stereo field is certainly nicely-defined with a wide soundstage and oodles of detail, it improved as well when I swapped in the DacMagic DAC as a source, the softer, rounder sound balancing well with the forward character of the amp.
Then, amp 2, bridge mode.
For only 320 pounds you get a pair of hefty little monoblocks, Sabaj make another version called the A20a which takes the same chassis but increases the output to a higher level. Oomph. So, we have here a powerhouse amplifier setup, nice that both units have a volume pot as that makes balance adjustment possible, something I didn't have up to now. Those of us who use digital, chip-based audio equipment know that warming-up and running-in make a significant difference to the eventual sound quality and I have had the second amp for less than 24 hours. Leaving the whole setup on overnight, everything was nicely warmed-through (despite -7C outside) this morning and I have just had a short but critical listen.
Tangerine Dream sound amazing through these! No doubt about it. Every bleep, bloop and phase-effect is presented with astonishing sharpness. The wide soundstage is more definitively-defined than I can ever remember with other amplifiers. The sound isn't excessively bright but it is on the borderline sometimes. Complex passages just lack a tiny bit of control and there is an overall 'artificial' sheen to the character that makes the music come across as a touch 'stiff'. This isn't a problem with synth/EM at all, but how about real people playing real instruments? Not bad, actually, I gave Joni Mitchell's wonderful live 'Miles of Aisles' a spin and that worked rather well, being a bass-player I always try to follow bass-lines and the Sabaj amps present those on a plate. Easy to feel exactly what the bassist is doing in this great live-band. And Joni singing, playing piano and guitar, everything is vivid, technicolour sound. No holding back on detail - I have never been able to pick out some audience comments before now, and I could clearly make out what folks were shouting to Joni. As I said, this Hifi-geek is dead chuffed.
Subtlety, a sense of 3D depth and relaxed involvement. These are qualities that the inner-Audiophile (the snob!) still misses and has his reservations about. The question is, will a period of burn-in bring out more of those qualities in the Sabaj A10a? It can take weeks of use for audio gear to really come on song and I have little experience of Class D and cannot say for sure - but will see and hear this for myself.
For the moment, however, I am really, truly impressed.
- These users thanked the author Fretless for the post (total 3):
- CN211276 (Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:27 pm) • TheRealAleman (Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:47 pm) • Nearlymusical (Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:46 pm)
Upstairs:
VinylPro-Ject 1.2 + Grado Sig Jr + Cambridge Alva Duo
DigiVolumio PC + Kiss DP-500 + Sabaj A20d
NVA: Cube2 - SSP - LS6+ Sabaj A10a {x2)
Little Bear MC2 + AQ NightHawk
Downstairs:
VinylLogic DM101 + Syrinx LE1 + Grado Sig MCX
DigiDenafrips Ares II + Volumio PC + Cambridge CXC
NVA: P50 & PSU - BMUAiyima A07 MAX + Arcam One
HP: Allo DigiOne + Sabaj A10d + AQ NightOwl
Office: Allo DigiOne SIG + SMSL M300se + Douk G4 (x2)
Mission 760 + Monolith 887 + German Maestro GMP 450
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