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Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:53 am

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:19 am

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:40 am The Proms favourite Rule Britannia stems from a time when North African merchants were raiding the South coast of Britain for slaves, the advent of the Royal Navy put an end to that particular slave trade, which is what the song celebrates.

When the song was written, Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade. Does that not suggest that the author thought it wrong for Britains to be slaves, but OK for Britains to take others as slaves?

Possibly but as we can’t ask him/her we can only guess.

We should remember that slaves were taken in Africa by fellow Africans and sold to traders who transported them and sold them on. That in no way excuses the traders but, for some, might cause them to reconsider what happened. We rarely consider what was happening in Africa that resulted in the enslavement of those who were sold. No I don’t know what was going on either, I am simply pointing out that it is far more complex than many would have us believe. Tear down the statues comemorating the traders by all means but don’t make the mistake of forgetting them or what they did. Equally let’s not forget the Africans who started the chain.

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:00 pm

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:53 am

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:19 am

When the song was written, Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade. Does that not suggest that the author thought it wrong for Britains to be slaves, but OK for Britains to take others as slaves?

Possibly but as we can’t ask him/her we can only guess.

We should remember that slaves were taken in Africa by fellow Africans and sold to traders who transported them and sold them on. That in no way excuses the traders but, for some, might cause them to reconsider what happened. We rarely consider what was happening in Africa that resulted in the enslavement of those who were sold. No I don’t know what was going on either, I am simply pointing out that it is far more complex than many would have us believe. Tear down the statues comemorating the traders by all means but don’t make the mistake of forgetting them or what they did. Equally let’s not forget the Africans who started the chain.

The past is always complex, but I can't see how that stops us dealing with issues, now.

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:10 pm

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:00 pm

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:53 am

Possibly but as we can’t ask him/her we can only guess.

We should remember that slaves were taken in Africa by fellow Africans and sold to traders who transported them and sold them on. That in no way excuses the traders but, for some, might cause them to reconsider what happened. We rarely consider what was happening in Africa that resulted in the enslavement of those who were sold. No I don’t know what was going on either, I am simply pointing out that it is far more complex than many would have us believe. Tear down the statues comemorating the traders by all means but don’t make the mistake of forgetting them or what they did. Equally let’s not forget the Africans who started the chain.

The past is always complex, but I can't see how that stops us dealing with issues, now.

It is not the “dealing with the issues” that is the problem, it is more the apparent desire to erase evidence that the events were associated with the place. Change the name of a street, remove a statue, rename a concert hall and within a generation most of the locals have forgotten, or never knew, of the connection. Does that matter? Yes, if it leads to a denial that it ever happened.

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:15 pm

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:10 pm

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:00 pm

The past is always complex, but I can't see how that stops us dealing with issues, now.

It is not the “dealing with the issues” that is the problem, it is more the apparent desire to erase evidence that the events were associated with the place. Change the name of a street, remove a statue, rename a concert hall and within a generation most of the locals have forgotten, or never knew, of the connection. Does that matter? Yes, if it leads to a denial that it ever happened.

When Germany removed all references to the Nazi leader(s) from 'strasse' names, did it lead to a denial, from Germans. that the Holocaust ever happened? We have the internet, books, social media...and education.

I think a bigger problem, for those who are (often violently) determined that street names should not be removed, is that they see such changes as a threat to their sense of identity. The same with the singing of Rule Britannia and Land of Hope & Glory. We don't like it being pointed out that there was a bit more to Empire than flag waving.

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:39 pm

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:15 pm

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:10 pm
It is not the “dealing with the issues” that is the problem, it is more the apparent desire to erase evidence that the events were associated with the place. Change the name of a street, remove a statue, rename a concert hall and within a generation most of the locals have forgotten, or never knew, of the connection. Does that matter? Yes, if it leads to a denial that it ever happened.

When Germany removed all references to the Nazi leader(s) from 'strasse' names, did it lead to a denial, from Germans. that the Holocaust ever happened? We have the internet, books, social media...and education.

I think a bigger problem, for those who are (often violently) determined that street names should not be removed, is that they see such changes as a threat to their sense of identity. The same with the singing of Rule Britannia and Land of Hope & Glory. We don't like it being pointed out that there was a bit more to Empire than flag waving.

I won’t deny that the songs are rather rose tinted but singing them once a year is pretty harmless, particularly as the navy is off on exercise.

Renaming streets in 1945 was less convoluted a process than it is now and I suspect the streets reverted to pre-nazi era names. Street names that are hundreds of years old can be difficult to change because there are so many references to the old name, particularly so if the street is famous, or notorious, for some event or resident.

As I said many people won’t even be aware of a particular connection, I only know Gibson Road is named after Guy Gibson because the estate was previously RAF married quarters for two local RAF stations. I suspect people connect our road name with the celebrity chef James Martin rather than Sir James Martin. Some times it is better not to disturb the peace with road names.

slinger wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:25 pm Do you think it's time for the "Sir Winston Churchill: Greatest PM this country has ever seen and #1 Greatest Briton of all time, or mass-murdering genocidal racist?" thread yet, or should I wait a bit?

Daniel Quinn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:45 pm I’ll start one which should put an end to em all

“People are multi faceted and frequently displays characteristics, traits and behaviour you will like and dislike , generally it’s I’ll conceived to focus on one at the expense of the other”