Colin Wonfor

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

In 1860, during the Second Opium War, British and French expeditionary forces, having marched inland from the coast at Tianjin (Tientsin), arrived in Beijing (Peking).

In mid-September, two envoys, Henry Loch and Harry Parkes went ahead of the main force under a flag of truce to negotiate with Prince Yi and representatives of the Qing Empire at Tongzhou (Tungchow). After a day of talks, they and their small escort of British and Indian troopers (including two British envoys and Thomas William Bowlby, a journalist for The Times) were taken prisoner by the Qing general Sengge Rinchen. They were taken to the Ministry of Justice (or Board of Punishments) in Beijing, where they were confined and tortured. Parkes and Loch were returned after two weeks, with 14 other survivors. 20 British, French and Indian captives died. Their bodies were barely recognisable.

On the night of 6 October, French units diverted from the main attack force towards the Old Summer Palace. At the time, the palace was occupied by only some eunuchs and palace maids; the Xianfeng Emperor and his entourage had already fled to the Chengde Mountain Resort in Hebei. Although the French commander Charles Cousin-Montauban assured his British counterpart, James Hope Grant, that "nothing had been touched", there was extensive looting by French and British soldiers. There was no significant resistance to the looting, even though many Qing soldiers were in the vicinity.

On October 18, Lord Elgin, the British High Commissioner to China, retaliated against the torture and executions by ordering the destruction of the Old Summer Palace. Destroying the Old Summer Palace was also thought to be a way of discouraging the Qing Empire from using kidnapping as a bargaining tool. It took 3,500 British troops to set the entire place ablaze, taking a total of three days to burn. Only 13 buildings survived intact, most of them in the remote areas or by the lakeside. The palace was again sacked and completely destroyed in 1900 when the forces of the Eight-Nation Alliance invaded Beijing. Charles George Gordon, who was then a 27-year-old captain in the Royal Engineers and part of the 1860 Anglo-French expeditionary force, wrote about his experience:

We went out, and, after pillaging it, burned the whole place, destroying in a vandal-like manner most valuable property which [could] not be replaced for four millions. We got upward of £48 apiece prize money...I have done well. The [local] people are very civil, but I think the grandees hate us, as they must after what we did the Palace. You can scarcely imagine the beauty and magnificence of the places we burnt. It made one's heart sore to burn them; in fact, these places were so large, and we were so pressed for time, that we could not plunder them carefully. Quantities of gold ornaments were burnt, considered as brass. It was wretchedly demoralising work for an army.

British and French looters preferred porcelain (much of which still graces English and French country houses) while neglecting bronze vessels prized locally for cooking and burial in tombs. Many such treasures dated back to the Shang, Zhou and Han dynasties and were up to 3,600 years old. A specific exception was the looting of the Haiyantang Zodiac fountain with its twelve bronze animal heads.

Once the Old Summer Palace had been reduced to ruins, a sign was raised with an inscription in Chinese stating, "This is the reward for perfidy and cruelty". The burning of the palace was the last act of the war.

According to Professor Wang Daocheng of the Renmin University of China, not all of the palace was destroyed in the original burning. Instead, some historical records indicate that 16 of the important garden sceneries survived the destruction in 1860. Wang identifies the Republican era and the Cultural Revolution as two significant periods that contributed further to the destruction of the Old Summer Palace.

Like the Forbidden City, no commoner had ever been allowed into the Old Summer Palace, as it was used exclusively by the imperial family of the Qing Empire. (See Personal narrative of occurrences during Lord Elgin's second embassy to China, 1860 by Henry Loch, 1869). The burning of the Old Summer Palace is still a very sensitive issue in China today. The destruction of the palace has been perceived as barbaric and criminal by many Chinese, as well as by external observers. In his "Expédition de Chine", Victor Hugo described the looting as, "Two robbers breaking into a museum, devastating, looting and burning, leaving laughing hand-in-hand with their bags full of treasures; one of the robbers is called France and the other Britain." In his letter, Hugo hoped that one day France would feel guilty and return what it had plundered from China.[

[Macca]

The burning was a deliberate act as a reprisal for the capture, torture and murder of members of the delgation. I doubt the avarage coolie would care since they would not have been allowed anywhere near the place except as a servant or slave.

I also wonder if any of that history is taught in Chinese schools. I've noticed that most Americans are completely unaware of the 1812 war and the burning of the White House, that episode is clearly absent from the teaching of history in American schools, and their presentation of the War of Independance is very much 'disneyfied'. The French barely get a mention although they actually did most of the fighting.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

It was simply theft, and we still have the booty. It often comes up in auction here and the Chinese are fighting each other to buy it back at very silly prices.

And remember the Opium wars were because the Chinese gov was trying to stop us being drug dealers and pushers onto their people - so who were the bastards then?

[Macca]

Like any history it generally is not that clear-cut, and of course the past is another country and they do things differently there.

I'd dispute the charge of theft. We had to send an army in so what did that cost? I'd call it reparations.

If you look at the empires of history the British is by far the most benign of them. I'd actually argue that for the dominions the benefits outweighed the disadvantages, (and the occasional massacre). Things only went badly wrong after WWII when the Americans took over and made some terribly poor decisions.

The other fact often overlooked is that the Empire was not carved out due to a policy of deliberate imperial expansion, that did not happen until the late 19th century and the 'race for Africa' when the Victorians had started to belive their own press. Prior to that territories like India and Canada were aquired for one simple reason - to stop the French from having them.

Bear in mind that British foreign policy was always to maintain a balance of power in Europe. If a European nation aquired too much in the way of colonies then the balance would be at risk.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I'd dispute the charge of theft. We had to send an army in so what did that cost? I'd call it reparations.

You really need to get your facts right. 1st fact, the Chinese had beautiful things we wanted to buy, but unless we paid with gold they didn't want to sell to us as we had NOTHING that they wanted. 2nd fact So we had to invent something (East India company again). We had Northern India and Afgan poppy fields and few people to sell them the drugs to so we took it to Southern China and started to turn the Chinese into drug addicts, so we could exchange opium for things we wanted. It was very successful as the Chinese are genetically very susceptible to Opiates. Opium dens sprung up all through Southern China.

The Chinese Government wanted to stop it so sent troops and passed laws banning it, and the warehouse in Guangdong (Canton) and others like in Hong Kong the opium was seized and burnt. So the British sent in ships and troops to force them to allow us to make drug addicts out of them. Two wars fought because of it and the outcome of the second one was we stole Hong Kong from them. I am sorry but you are deluded the Brits were bastards and used and abused everyone they could. Same in India. Same in Malaysia and Burma. Same in Africa (we not the Nazi invented the concentration camp, in S Africa to starve Boer women and children in).

[Colin Wonfor]

Well today was fun, got parking ticket for parking in a disabled bay with my blue badge, got speeding ticket, got shit e-mail from lawyer about my ex-wife and how she was offered and wants all my shares from TQ, and that Geoff would give her £54K for them double what he offered me. Went to hospital to have a op but is can't be done because I am now allergic to yet another antibiotic, so what next WW3 I suspect.
What I want to understand is why do all these come on the same day who organises that and will he stop it soon please.
Now feeling very down time to kill and get free board and lodgings for life at your expense. Life is just F--king
And more is happening now I have to move again to another address maybe on HMP camp site. Law is for the rich it a game they play to keep you poor, well let's play lads.Time to use your rules to feed and roof me.

[jammy395]

Col - I hear yer building a 100W SECA.

Any truth in this madness, and if so any further details ?

[Colin Wonfor]

Col - I hear yer building a 100W SECA.

Any truth in this madness, and if so any further details ?

Yes I was listened to the bare bones yesterday, silly power levels but lovely control, 16 Power devices in each channel, when measured into 8R it gave 153WRMS/ch . Just a baby one next week we build Battersea 10MW SECA and take out the whole of England leaving Scotland with the only power left with the added advantage of superb heating with music.

[Alfi]

Colin.

We love ya m8, but you're like a mad professor



Alfi

[jammy395]

So col...what do ya reckon...
Could you build me an amp that sounds as good as A MFA1000
But lasts longer than a month....

Tough........Challenge