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My uni course between 78-80, the history of the Atlantic, presented an accurate picture. Britain was built on the back of slavery in the 18th Century and pressed for its international abolition in the 19th Century for economic reasons.

CN211276 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:07 pm My uni course between 78-80, the history of the Atlantic, presented an accurate picture. Britain was built on the back of slavery in the 18th Century and pressed for its international abolition in the 19th Century for economic reasons.

And, yet, you had no idea of the origins of Colston Hall?

That's not a criticism, just an observation that the inheritance of the slave trade is so everyday.

savvypaul wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:12 pm And, yet, you had no idea of the origins of Colston Hall?

That's exactly what it He should know - that there was slave trade and not who was involved as those are not worth remembering ( except reference in history books that can always be used as reference)

Ithilstone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:17 pm

savvypaul wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:12 pm And, yet, you had no idea of the origins of Colston Hall?

That's exactly what it He should know - that there was slave trade and not who was involved as those are not worth remembering ( except reference in history books that can always be used as reference)

I think that knowing the specific circumstances of an institution that is local to you, makes that history more relevant to individuals. I think you can do that without glorifying the perpetrators, by putting that information into museums, books etc

Bristol is not local to me. I only go there to see favourite bands who miss out Cardiff on tours because it is only an hour away. If I was from Bristol I probably would have known who Colston was. In contrast Cardiff was built on coal not slavery, though the conditions in the mines were akin to slavery. I have a knowledge of the local history and those who made fortunes out of coal, outside of my formal education.

Ithilstone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:42 pm

Daniel Quinn wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:35 pm
Name me a 17 c slave trader/philanthropist who deos not have a cultural artefact.

why ?

we do not need to remember them regardless if they have a street named after them
if the only thing they do was philanthropy - as we do not need to remember them for slave trade
it is enough to remember that there WAS slave trade - i would rather remember victims that oppressors...

That makes sense.

In the same way that it makes sense to realise that there are sexual predators that hide in plain sight and use cunning to avoid getting brought to justice. And that there there are organisations with employees that don't do the right thing when faced with a situation where they can either do what's morally right or they can just go with the flow.
And that sometimes the behaviour is so cunning that anyone that stands up and tries to out the wrong doer gets villified. As per John Lydon's interview all those years ago when he said that Savile was a hypocrite and that there were rumours about him, which lead to the Pistols and PiL being banned from the BBC.

Naming a road after somebody is a form of honour, likewise airports, bridges, ships etc. sometimes it turns out that the person so honoured wasn't what they appeared to have been. Which raises the question "for what are we honouring them"? Often it is for something worthwhile such as developing the ejection seat (Sir James Martin) or leading a particularly successful military campaign (T. E. Lawrence, Guy Gibson). There are roads around here honouring all three of them but I would imagine that the vast majority of local residents haven't a clue as to how these roads were named. Would changing the names make any difference? Probably only in terms of confusing the post office and navigation systems.

Did renaming St Petersburg make any difference, enough that when the Soviet Union fell it reverted from Leningrad to pre-revolutionary St Petersburg, even if the airport IATA code remains LED. Each generation views history through a different lens, what in 1943 was a heroic enterprise would, today, be a war crime but probably only because of what was done. Often we don't anticipate things, or don't criminalise them, until after the event. The Proms favourite Rule Britannia stems from a time when North African merchants were raiding the South coast of Britain for slaves, the advent of the Royal Navy put an end to that particular slave trade, which is what the song celebrates.

When Bristol was a centre of the slave trade slavery was considered normal, in some societies it is still considered so. We should be grateful that we have the freedom to make changes but it might, just possibly, be better to remember the horrors of the past as an incentive not to repeat them.

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:40 am The Proms favourite Rule Britannia stems from a time when North African merchants were raiding the South coast of Britain for slaves, the advent of the Royal Navy put an end to that particular slave trade, which is what the song celebrates.

When the song was written, Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade. Does that not suggest that the author thought it wrong for Britains to be slaves, but OK for Britains to take others as slaves?

savvypaul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:19 am

Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:40 am The Proms favourite Rule Britannia stems from a time when North African merchants were raiding the South coast of Britain for slaves, the advent of the Royal Navy put an end to that particular slave trade, which is what the song celebrates.

When the song was written, Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade. Does that not suggest that the author thought it wrong for Britains to be slaves, but OK for Britains to take others as slaves?

Possibly but as we can’t ask him/her we can only guess.

We should remember that slaves were taken in Africa by fellow Africans and sold to traders who transported them and sold them on. That in no way excuses the traders but, for some, might cause them to reconsider what happened. We rarely consider what was happening in Africa that resulted in the enslavement of those who were sold. No I don’t know what was going on either, I am simply pointing out that it is far more complex than many would have us believe. Tear down the statues comemorating the traders by all means but don’t make the mistake of forgetting them or what they did. Equally let’s not forget the Africans who started the chain.

[quote=Lindsayt post_id=225582 time=1638780314 user_id=276
And that sometimes the behaviour is so cunning that anyone that stands up and tries to out the wrong doer gets villified. As per John Lydon's interview all those years ago when he said that Savile was a hypocrite and that there were rumours about him, which lead to the Pistols and PiL being banned from the BBC.
[/quote]

The BBC's hypocracy was mentioned in Bruce Dickinson's more recent autobiography. At the same time as many at the beeb knew what Saville was doing they banned Iron Maiden's tongue in cheek Christmas No 1 single Bring your daughter to the slaughter.