The state of the UK Hi-Fi Industry...and what might be done

[Wonfor14]

Colin, if I ever had to change from nva (perish the thought) you would be my first port of call. Keep knockin' em out

Thank you for that, but Richard would come and visit as a ghost.
And be pissed of some what.

[Latteman]

One of the problems I have found you can not trust the bugger to tell the truth, advert pay wages.
So guys like NVA and me get side line and the truth can not compensate for money I found.
Lies rule it seems, so I do not want anything to do with such snakes having had one as bastard business partner.
A lying git of a man a bloody bully to boot. I do hope there is a hell for these scum bags.

Sorry got on high house again.

Richard I suspect had lots of crap from these NOT TRUTH TELLERS and NVA is good kit and good value. But if you ain't got money or you are a bit wacky then you are out bruv.

I have found that most people in the world of hi-fi either have no agenda - or no large agenda. Or if they have an agenda / vested emotional interest that they have sufficient integrity.
So that most people either have enough of an open mind and enough integrity to report their experiences in hi-fi honestly and accurately.

However there are a proportion of people that don't fall into this category. When Richard Dunn was still alive, a large amount of the content of this forum discussed these people. I think to the point where most active members of this forum can recognise the liars and the bullshitters.

What's annoying when dealing with liars and bullshitters in the world of hi-fi is that it's not a level playing field when dealing with them. Lies and bullshit can be extremely powerful when it comes to giving others certain mindsets. More powerful than someone speaking as honestly and accurately and with as much integrity as they can.
That's because as humans we are primarily emotional based in our decision making. And lies and bullshit tend to be better at pulling the emotional strings than the truth, honesty and accuracy.

I'm with you on this Colin. I see the liars and bullshitters as my natural enemies. These are the people in the hi-fi world that I have fallen out with. Either through open hostility or from me not mixing with them.

At sometime we all have the friend who is either searching for an upgrade or just plain advice on hifi / music- recently I introduced a friend to Nva amps and he is now an Nva owner. For a friend wanting advice on a new system I would previously recommend the original starter kit; P20, A20 & Cubettes.
The word of mouth and demo is powerful
Unfortunately my experience is that Nva is still frowned upon as the hater’s have done a good job- my new Nva owner friend is someone who had heard the hate rants- wether he believed or not it was enough to avert his gaze to other brands. Now, I believe he will tell one other about Nva who will tell another etc etc

Nva changes lives - fact

Theres the quote attributed to Mark Twain
"It's easier to fool someone than to convince them that they've been fooled"

I've seen examples of this all over the world of hi-fi.
Even with people with integrity, it's often a struggle to get to the position where you can present them with clear evidence that will change their mind.

[NSNO2021]

We are in some ways fortunate that if you have the time and inclination to put in the required effort to undertake days of online research you will discover a significant number of talented individuals and small audio businesses that really do deliver excellent value for money. NVA, Colin's EWA, Nick's LDA are just a few examples.
Unfortunately we are moving more & more towards a "here & now" society where consumers want everything delivered on a proverbial plate, convenience and speed of delivery is everything. The challenge is how you find and communicate with your potential buyers. Do that well and you can educate and influence your audience and in turn prosper.

[Geoff.R.G]

I feel that one of the problems with Hi-Fi is that, with prices the way they are, customers expect to buy a product that looks like it is worth what they paid for it. My Quad 707 is just a grey box with a light on the front, NVA amps are little different, neither looks exciting, or terribly expensive. It isn't the looks that matter though it is the sound they produce that matters. If someone is spending £5,000 on an amplifier they expect it to look the part so manufacturers go to great lengths to achieve that, at minimal cost.

Other distractions are that "Power is cheap" so if one looks at many of the amplifiers available they boast hundreds of watts of output. We'll leave aside the fact that speakers are current driven and therefore power output is misleading, but why does one need 200W when listening at home? The answer of course is that 200 Watts per channel sounds more impressive than 35 or 15 but in the 1960s a Leak Stereo 30 was perfectly capable of producing loud music from its 15 watts. Not that anybody would pay £N,000 for a 15 WPC amp even if 15 watts of clean power easily trumps 200 watts of distorted power. This also results in low efficiency speakers designed, it would appear, to a formula. Looking good, or quirky, is part of the formula.

Then there is the accessory industry...

In simple terms it has ceased to be about sound and it is all about appearances.

[antonio66]

The inner tube speaker isolation thing has highlighted or reminded me of a few things about the state of the hifi industry. Prices seem to be totally unrelated to performance. As you say Geoff, appearance is seen as a barometer of performance to some.

Townshend products started life using air inflation (inner tubes, bladders or similar) and we will never really know if the springs have any benefits unless we compare the two. I would suggest that the move to springs was to portray a more professional image which is detached from any form of diyness. Sure , they don't need re inflating, may look better (unless the inner tube is hidden) and might be easier to level for products with uneven weight distribution.

For an outlay of £8 for a pair of tubes plus some base to put over the top the value for money of this simple to try idea is through the roof and in to space )IME). I don't care if the sprung products are better. They can't be hundreds of pounds better if they are even any better at all. Springs need damping, inner tubes are self damping.

Naim's service department used to have a good reputation for reliability and pricing was not too insulting. It's a different story now as service prices have rocketed and quality of service slumped. sounds about right for a company that was largely owned by it's founder but is now owned by some evil asset stripping venture capitalists. The way the world is going (and has been for decades) really boils my piss.

Thank the lord for small companies like NVA, Avondale, LDA and Colin's. But companies like these struggle to make any headway because of lack of exposure amongst other things. Can they be carried on when the original owner retires or as we all must, passes away.

Being a capable diyer (I think) I have always got comfort that I am out of the mainstream in many ways. Diy can get exactly what you want for less money if you buy wisely. Diy can be expensive unless you know exactly what you want and how to get there for the lowest outlay. I spent quite a bit on different parts and components (you don't get economies of scale at this level) but they can be recycled in to other projects or sold to other diyers. Richard used to bang on about the diy audio hobbyist and how common it was in the 50's, 60's and even 70's. The future is diy for me. Don't be at the mercy of others.

There are reports that through hole components especially transistors that are good for audio are being discontinued at an alarming rate as the mass market moves to crappy pcb's full of surface mount components and everything in one box that can also wipe your arse. Not good news for us old schoolers who hate surface mount and products that die or become obsolete in five years.

If you can't or don't want to diy then just buy NVA

[Wonfor14]

As keen fan of DIY since I was about 12yrs old and a bit of hoarder I have still got my first transistor dad bought for 10 shilling (50p) it a GET1 before OC72 etc.
That money would have fed us 7 kids for over a day, but my lovely dad saved it for me.
Tony (Anthony) Wonfor joined the Inca Tech company when he became redundant from Plessey.
He hated the press in the mags for hifi/audio he always thought even in the late 70s that they con folk to pay for Xmas Decoration Audio, short lived and basically crap but cash in abundant .And like me wanted the kit to last a life time, strange Claymore No 8 is still out there made in 1979. I had back here last year for updates, god window should be like that PC update every 10s and always when you want order stuff from FEC.
Remember Amstrad now Lord Sugar, the shit in audio junk was done on free samples, he con Sir Clive out of a PC design, And now teaches other to rip of folk. And made into a Lord why?, and can we all apply for it.

Like this one link only no avert https://telluriumq.com/wp-content/uploa ... awards.png

[slinger]

I come across Sugar quite often on Twitter, he has a bad take on most news I consider good. Last time I crossed paths with him I told him he was a pompous, vainglorious, asshat.

Yeah, I know, he'll never read it, but just "telling" him things like that can be quite cathartic.

[slinger]

I'm going to ask everyone to stay on-topic, in this thread, as I am promoting this debate across social media.

And, if you want to share this debate on other forums (subject to their rules), please feel free to do so.

Many thanks, guys.

[CN211276]

We are in some ways fortunate that if you have the time and inclination to put in the required effort to undertake days of online research you will discover a significant number of talented individuals and small audio businesses that really do deliver excellent value for money. NVA, Colin's EWA, Nick's LDA are just a few examples.
Unfortunately we are moving more & more towards a "here & now" society where consumers want everything delivered on a proverbial plate, convenience and speed of delivery is everything. The challenge is how you find and communicate with your potential buyers. Do that well and you can educate and influence your audience and in turn prosper.

The trouble with doing the online research - as a novice in hi-fi - is that there's a too high chance that you will land in some hi-fi advice ghetto. Where the general standard of advice is poor to mediocre. And then as a novice, there's no way of knowing whether you are the blind being lead by the blind, or if you are the blind being led by the bullshitters.

[Geoff.R.G]

When I was looking for a Hi-Fi forum this one stood out because of what it didn't have, no "my gear is best" threads. it was also the only one to have any music content (before any one disagrees, when I found this site I stopped looking).

Hi-Fi isn't, or shouldn't be about kit, it should be about music. The hardware is secondary and only here will you find a manufacturer agreeing with DIY, experimentation and discussion on design principles. We also have Colin and his experience which is really beneficial, thanks Colin.

The Hi-Fi industry is in the state we find it in because it isn't about music any more it is about money. That may explain why some manufacturers, no names to protect the guilty, are selling class D amplifiers and making extravagant claims. It also explains why an isolation platform can sell for £500+ when a £4 inner tube and a piece of chipboard can do the same job. In the 1950s and 60s Hi-Fi was a hobby, people made their own amplifiers from published circuits or kits, if you wanted there were wonders from Leak, Quad, Radford etc. In the 1970s there were many UK made amps and speakers as well as Japanese items, with a dealer on every high street. Then it all went up market and dealers closed or became appointment only, and I lost interest.